The Listening Tube Welcomes Eric Margolis

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Hey, the listening tube welcomes a guest. My guest today is a seasoned journalist who's traveled the world to find stories that matter. When it comes to war and the struggle between cultures, Eric Margales has experience and insights few others have. He's written numerous articles about war and global affairs, as well as books, including American Raj, Liberation or Domination, and War at the Top of the World. Both bring first-hand knowledge and behind-the-scenes observations of events that continue to shape our world today. Eric spent some time with me in the listening tube from his home in Toronto. An interview from the listening tube. How is news coverage in Canada different from that in the United States?

SPEAKER_01 0:55

That's an interesting question. Uh the news uh uh business is even more concentrated here, Canada, than it is in the US. Uh There are less ownership, less stations, less and the economy has been very hard on the media in recent years, particularly print newspapers.

SPEAKER_00 1:20

Yes, well, print newspapers are suffering pretty much anywhere on this continent anyway. I've spent uh many years as a newspaper pressman. So I kept seeing our daily print tally diminish as the days and weeks and months and years went by and ultimately everything got consolidated. Is there a difference in the content of it or how it's presented?

SPEAKER_01 1:56

Well, see, see certainly since I began four decades ago, there's a big difference. Uh the newspaper business always had its own agenda to present, that of its owners, shareholders. But uh as time went by, the as the newspaper and TV business shrank, became more concentrated because of economic factors. Excuse me, my voice is a little wunky. Uh the uh the uh breadth of opinion diminished to the point where you have more and more uniformity. Everybody singing up from the same page.

SPEAKER_00 2:42

Is news more or less independent in Canada? Or you have you also have the the Canadian Broadcast Company, if I'm not mistaken. What role do they play in in news coverage and delivery?

SPEAKER_01 2:59

Well, they give you a little broader coverage of the news, and they also emphasize Canadian news so they can bring you really boring stories about places in Saskatchewan and things that that the regular media would run normally run, but uh would reject. But there is so there's this issue. Uh the Canadian government, the CBC has to uh also keep on good terms with the Canadian government. I, for example, was banned by the CBC once years ago. By and large, uh I f I find the Canadian media is uh less biased than the US media and uh tries to be more comprehensive uh in its role.

SPEAKER_00 4:00

I gathered from our initial uh chat that you are now retired. Is that correct?

SPEAKER_01 4:07

Not uh I keep saying I am, but uh they won't let me retire. Well now, were you a freelancer or did you work for a company or I was a foreign uh editor for the Sun Chain, which was the leading chain of newspapers in Canada for uh 30, 40 years?

SPEAKER_00 4:29

Okay, and then so you did you get to choose which stories you wanted to pursue?

SPEAKER_01 4:34

Yeah, usually.

SPEAKER_00 4:35

Yeah. And how how did you determine uh which stories you did want to pursue? Was it a matter of importance? Was it a matter of uh top topical uh in information? What what were the driving factors there?

SPEAKER_01 4:51

What I thought was interesting or important uh or outrageous baloney, uh, I would go after or avoid those stories on those conditions.

SPEAKER_00 5:04

So you would avoid the baloney stories?

SPEAKER_01 5:07

Unless they were so outrageous that they required uh be uh uh taken to task.

SPEAKER_00 5:16

So you had to see it for yourself, in other words, just to determine what was going on there. Now, to how many different far-flung places around the world have you been?

SPEAKER_01 5:26

Oh, I've been all over the world. Uh I've never been to Australia or New Zealand, I must say, but Africa, Asia, South America, the Middle East, Afghanistan, North Korea, uh, all these places I've been to many times over.

SPEAKER_00 5:45

Did you have any favorites?

SPEAKER_01 5:47

Well, my favorite is Switzerland. Uh, it's the safest place to go to. But um Switzerland and France are my personal favorites because of their quality of life and their culture and their wines. There are other countries, for example, India or Egypt, that are producers of lots of interesting news. I like them too.

SPEAKER_00 6:16

How do you feel about what's happening in France right now? Would you want to return there?

SPEAKER_01 6:23

Mon Dieu! Uh yes, I'm ready to go and get on an airplane and go to Paris and demonstrate in the streets again simply because it's being very French to riot and break things. I've been in a couple of uh major demonstrations. I think it's pathetic. The uh French government is too cowardly, they should never let this these hooligans uh get to this point. The um French uh uh establishment is so scared of the rioters and the unions with elections on the horizon, so they're uh tiptoeing around and being good. And right now France needs a strong, they need General de Gaulle, they need a figure like de Gaulle to come and say enough.

SPEAKER_00 7:18

But but keep the guillotines locked up.

SPEAKER_01 7:22

Yes, but uh on a less moderate view, I advocate in a just in a recent article that they bring out the Legion, for French Foreign Legion, and let them clear the streets.

SPEAKER_00 7:38

Well, that would certainly make news, wouldn't it?

SPEAKER_01 7:41

I've seen them do it in the past. They're very efficient at head breaking and dumping people into the river who they've killed. Uh and they are they have no pity.

SPEAKER_00 7:56

Oh right. Now, when you travel around the world, you notice that there are many different customs and traditions. Even among Western nations, people from Ontario or Vancouver are vastly different from people in New Orleans or Albuquerque. If you're not familiar with local customs or perhaps have a misconception about them, it's easy to make mistakes. Have you ever made a colloquial faux pas that got you in trouble in some way or was for some reason embarrassing?

SPEAKER_01 8:35

Oh, certainly. Um, as a frequent commentator on events, I usually step on somebody's toes. And uh I I haven't made any horrible mistake of uh getting the name of the state capitol wrong uh or anything like this. But uh even every once in a while, as a bad boy by nature, uh I managed to squeeze squeeze in a nasty crack about the government or some group in the area, and I get a lot of people yelling at me. Sometimes whole countries.

SPEAKER_00 9:14

So, but but those were were conscious decisions, correct? Yes. But what about, you know, just maybe um running afoul of local traditions or customs that perhaps maybe you were not aware?

SPEAKER_01 9:32

Uh I'm pretty pretty knowledgeable about customs in many countries, and uh careful so as not to step on toes.

SPEAKER_00 9:46

Do you have to do any research in order to be prepared for those types of before you go to a new country?

SPEAKER_01 9:55

You've got to read a couple of books about it. Read uh educate yourself. I would uh I feel it behooves any journalist or commentator to do so.

SPEAKER_00 10:08

Now I know being out in the field can be highly unpredictable. Have you ever found yourself wondering, what the hell am I doing here? Or this is so freaking awesome.

SPEAKER_01 10:21

Yes, many times. Uh particularly, well, I've been worked uh for uh as a war correspondent covering 14 conflicts uh in Africa and Asia and South America, and many a time did I say to myself, what the hell am I doing? Let's get the hell out of there here, A-SAP. Uh I'm a former soldier too, US Army, and so I uh I'm used to being in rough places, but um yeah, I think of it often, but that's the news business. I mean, if you want to get interesting and news and insight, you've got to go to places where people are shooting at you.

SPEAKER_00 11:10

Well, I would hope to they weren't specifically shooting at you.

SPEAKER_01 11:15

There were bad shots. Most people they missed me.

SPEAKER_00 11:21

Well, I'm glad you you came out of it unscathed then. Um, do you have any any specific examples of where maybe you you were you felt like your life was in danger?

SPEAKER_01 11:34

Oh, many times. Um when I used to cover the Middle East, for example, I used to lie in bed at night, places like Libya or Syria, really scary places, and and and listen to footfalls outside my door of my bedroom, thinking they're coming to grab me at night, take me away. In fact, it did happen, but I was taken away for a dinner party, not an execution.

SPEAKER_00 12:05

I'm sure you were very relieved.

SPEAKER_01 12:08

I definitely.

SPEAKER_00 12:11

Now, have you uh in your travels, uh you've I'm sure you have probably traveled to countries that are under authoritarian rule, dictatorships, communism. What are the what are some of the steps that you need to take uh before you go to a country like that? What precautions are there uh to protect your own well-being and and just to make sure that you stay uh on the good side of those powers?

SPEAKER_01 12:39

Well, first of a step is to get an official invitation or a uh uh a document saying that you're invited as a guest and you're a journalist, you're not a C CIA spy, uh, who are not there to overthrow the government. Uh, you have to be sort of uh clean slight on that. And to avoid people who are who are dangerous, they're rebellious, revolutionary people uh who want to overthrow the government. Well, you've got to treat them, uh keeping them at arm's lengths, uh, and then try and be as fair as you can with all sides.

SPEAKER_00 13:23

But certainly you don't want the the the government to think that you're in cahoots with with the people who are who are fighting against them.

SPEAKER_01 13:32

Well, it has happened to me. And uh I was uh where was Aeneas? I think I was arrested in Egypt and uh in Syria, in Iraq, uh during the war, uh as an American American and Israeli spy. Uh so I managed to get around that problem without getting shot or hanged. But uh it's very easy to get into trouble. That's why newspapers like to send what they call stringers. These are not full-time employees there. So if there's some if you if you get hanged or shot, well, too bad I'll find somebody else.

SPEAKER_00 14:20

And have you have you ever held had to deal with uh handlers who constantly accompanied you everywhere you went?

SPEAKER_01 14:28

Yes, I have. Uh it's happened to me in uh particularly in Iraq, uh, when Saddam was still in power, and uh they were everywhere, uh up your room, following you at night, going to with you to dinner. Uh and what was funny is that you you you needed them, you hated them, but you needed them. Uh, but at the end, I remember in Iraq, my chief Iraqi handlers, as I was leaving, going to the airport, he said, Mr. Eric, he said, you here is my invoice. Invoice for what? said I. And he said, uh, for services, me driving around to take you a year and there. Anyway, you owe me $25,000. US dollars, please. And uh I would have been happy to pay him to get out of there because they were hanging, killing journalists.

SPEAKER_00 15:31

Did you pay him? No. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 15:35

No, without too much of a tight one, I'll risk my life.

SPEAKER_00 15:42

So it's the old the like the old Jack Benny uh your money or your life? Uh I'm thinking, I'm thinking. Very good. So now these handlers of which you speak, uh, did they also offer? I mean, obviously, this gentleman in Iraq uh felt you owed him money for the services he provided. Did they actually provide services? Did they protect you in any way?

SPEAKER_01 16:08

Well, in a way, they drove you around. Oh, yeah, car rental came with the personal payments as well. Yours for car rental. Uh they they wanted to squeeze the US was embargoing Iraq then. They were suddenly running low on money. So uh any form of money they could get, they were happy. But they were not happy with me. And then they threatened to hang me as as an American spy and as an Israeli spy.

SPEAKER_00 16:42

Not just one, but both.

SPEAKER_01 16:45

Double, double deal, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 16:48

Did they know that you were working though for a Canadian publication?

SPEAKER_01 16:53

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 16:54

But they still accused you of being a spy for the United States and Israel.

SPEAKER_01 16:58

That's correct.

SPEAKER_00 16:59

Okay, well, you had a you had a really good cover, I think.

SPEAKER_01 17:04

I was opened though, uh, to them, told them uh, and anyway, Canada in those days, Canada had a good name in the Middle East, gave you a little bit of protection.

SPEAKER_00 17:17

Well, yes, Canada is known for being kind. At least here they are.

SPEAKER_01 17:23

Yeah, and in the news business, uh rather uh unbiased and open, better balanced than U.S. publications.

SPEAKER_00 17:32

On the listening tube, my my program, not the headlines, is part of the family of programs, and I often talk about how headlines often tell a story that's quite different from what the story below it says. You maintain it goes deeper and that we're not hearing the story behind the story. Is is that a fair assessment?

SPEAKER_01 17:56

I would say so, yes.

SPEAKER_00 17:59

Well, here's what I want to know. Uh I understand that editors write the headlines and the reporters write the stories. But is it more important for news consumers to get the story behind the story, or that the headline more accurately describe what the story says?

SPEAKER_01 18:22

Well, I think the story behind the story, but problem is that most people don't have the the depth of interest to go deep into stories and to you know do we who has the time to read up on Sri Lanka's political problems? You you have to keep it short and terse. And uh people uh most people don't have time or interest to do this.

SPEAKER_00 18:51

Is the internet and the way news is presented to us in in that media shortening our attention spans uh to that comparable of a of a goldfish? Is that why we don't go past the headlines?

SPEAKER_01 19:09

Uh well it's it's worsening the problem because uh the interest in I like this morning. I have 354 emails waiting to be read. And uh who has the time to do this? I could do nothing but read emails all day if they would pay me to do it, but they're not. So uh it's it's a real problem. We have definitely media overload, but information we're still short.

SPEAKER_00 19:43

Well, yeah, and I think that may be because people often don't go past the headline. So an editor can put a headline on a story that uh is actually contradictory to the story itself.

SPEAKER_01 19:56

Quite right.

SPEAKER_00 19:56

And and I see that quite often. Uh, do you do you notice that as well?

SPEAKER_01 20:03

Uh I do. Uh and uh I I usually start reading halfway through the story. I don't even read the headline, I go right into the basic text.

SPEAKER_00 20:20

So I guess then your advice might be to ignore the headline and read the story.

SPEAKER_01 20:26

Yeah, well, my people often ask me this, and I my answer is uh what I do, I I read about six or seven newspapers a day, thanks to the benefit of the internet. You you know, I can get the English Daily Express from England, and I get the Irish newspapers, which are terrific, uh, and the Indian newspapers, which give a completely slant, different slant on Vance. And I read the French press religiously to follow the latest riots and uh other jump around, but without uh a broad selection like this, you don't really get the news.

SPEAKER_00 21:15

I I get where you're coming from there because now when I lived in Guam, I had a short wave radio and I could pull in radio stations from Australia, and I was always fascinated by listening to the news reports from Australia because they it was it was a different perspective than what we were accustomed to. Is there a place or a a country that has the what what you consider to be the best type of news coverage, and how is it different from what we're used to?

SPEAKER_01 21:55

That's a tough question for me. Um I uh have high regard for some of the British press, like the Times of London or the Telegraph, for the Swiss press because it's not biased, and uh for the um European press, different types of sorry, little. Um so I they're good, they're the ones I read every day.

SPEAKER_00 22:33

Are there any American papers that you read every day?

SPEAKER_01 22:36

Yes, of course. Uh but I but I've I'm a New Yorker. I grew up with the New York Times. Um it's the word of God. Uh at least they think so. Yes. And um I um think highly. Uh I think highly of the Wall Street Journal, even though it's hugely biased, um, unreliable when it comes to foreign news, but pretty good on economic affairs. Uh other than that, so the some of the online sites, like France 24, uh are very useful.

SPEAKER_00 23:19

Where is the biggest news story in the world right now?

SPEAKER_01 23:26

Well, I guess it's still in the US, uh post-electoral uh drama, and um and then of course the the war in the Gulf, which is going on.

SPEAKER_00 23:40

Are we learning everything we need to know about it?

SPEAKER_01 23:44

No, not at all.

SPEAKER_00 23:46

Um, what's missing then? What what do you want to know?

SPEAKER_01 23:50

Well, the old uh Greek saying that uh victory has a thousand fathers, defeat is an orphan, and uh it's true. The uh American politics now is covering up its errors in the past and has yet to really face reality. Why did this disastrous election happen? Why is America hated around the world? And uh why are we such a mess?

SPEAKER_00 24:23

So then uh if that's what you want to know, where would you go to find the answers to those questions?

SPEAKER_01 24:30

Well, a good place to start is our our foes, people who don't like us, tend to bring out the bad the interesting bad news, like uh read Russian papers, French newspapers, Germans are you have becoming useless. Um some of the Asian newspapers are very good, like the Singapore papers. Uh and uh the and as I said, the Indian papers before cover a lot of topics. They're pretty harem scarum, but um they uh they're interesting. And then if you're a real journalist, you have to read it uh many sources on opposing sides.

SPEAKER_00 25:23

Cuban newspapers or uh Canadian news uh so what you're suggesting then is uh to seek out some constructive criticism.

SPEAKER_01 25:35

Absolutely. It's the only way uh Lenin called it dialectical materialism, which was the method that communists used uh to assess and evaluate news stories and political events, you'd go for the critical, the anti story that to try and bounce that off the actual news and try and get some enlightenment therefrom.

SPEAKER_00 26:10

If you're a journalist and you want to pursue some of those stories, some of that information, obviously, you know, developing relationships is a very important part of being a journalist. How what what's the key to developing relationships with the right people who can get you in front of those who have the answers to your questions?

SPEAKER_01 26:33

That's a good question. You want to be fair and honest. Uh, that's really very important. You have to make the people you're talking to understand that you have respect for them. You don't like what they say, but you have respect to culture, not like Trump calling people shithole countries, things. Uh you just can't do that. And uh you have to make them know that your company that you're representing is tries to be given an appearance of fairness.

SPEAKER_00 27:16

We're often fed media that is meant to influence us instead of inform us. How do you tell the difference between the two?

SPEAKER_01 27:29

Well, by what they're saying, uh so much of the American press is linked to one or one or a group of wealthy people uh who are presenting their side of the story. You have to uh make make the people listening to you understand that you have an open mind on the subject and that you don't think of them as tree climbers uh or backwards people, uh, as many of our officials in Washington do.

SPEAKER_00 28:07

So I I'm I'm not sure I got the answer to my question, though. How do you tell how do you tell the difference between propaganda and news?

SPEAKER_01 28:19

Well, you have to know the story. Sorry I didn't give you the correct answer to that. It's very tough. And uh you have to know all the details and be very familiar and know what's uh what's propaganda, or what is real news, or what why are people trying to push this particular story? Well, the Middle East is a perfect example. Every story that comes out of there is represents one particular camp of people, these Arabs, Israelis, the Sawoodis. It's all of the news is corrupted and tainted.

SPEAKER_00 29:01

So all of it. So, and then in other words, in order to sift out what is news, you already have to be familiar with the propaganda itself.

SPEAKER_01 29:12

Absolutely familiar, you're quite right. You have to know every detail to start seeing what's baloney and what's the real, what looks like the real truth.

SPEAKER_00 29:24

One thing I noticed in um many of the stories that I've been seeing lately about uh voter fraud in the United States. I've been seeing a lot of stories about it recently, and I also see a lot more people being arrested and charged for different types of voter fraud. But in every single story that I read about voter fraud, the author of the story also includes the fact that voter fraud is actually very rare. And I'm a little bit confused by that because I keep seeing more and more reports about it, yet they keep insisting that it's very rare. Can both of those things be true?

SPEAKER_01 30:14

No, I don't think so. You're right. Uh it's uh voter fraud is is fairly rare, but not as massive as some people would say. During under the Biden administration, efforts were made to corrupt the system and to open the doors to illegal voting uh for political reasons. Uh under the Trump administration, I'm sure the worst things happening have happened or will happen too.

SPEAKER_00 30:48

Is the media the most powerful force in global geopolitics?

SPEAKER_01 30:59

One of the most powerful forces because it if influences American policy and behavior. Everybody's scared of the media of being exposed. But they treat it differently. Some people say, well, I better behave, act decently, or else let's shut them down, kick out the reporters, call them fascists or whatever we want. So there's a lot of lot of uh enmity towards the media.

SPEAKER_00 31:32

Is it justified?

SPEAKER_01 31:34

Yes. It is. Uh, but it's the old bearer of bad news. You're the messenger who brings bad news. They don't want to hear it. Uh go tell somebody else, they'll say.

SPEAKER_00 31:49

Yeah, well, unfortunately, good news uh media doesn't last very long. It's always the bad news that people seem to seek out and then and then feel terrible about having read it.

SPEAKER_01 32:04

It's a good point.

SPEAKER_00 32:06

Now, if you say that media is one of the most powerful forces in in geopolitics, what else is up there with it?

SPEAKER_01 32:15

Uh the common beliefs that people have. Russians are evil people. Uh the Arabs are dirty people, they're gonna try to, they want to kill us all. Uh there are these prejudices, I think you call them. Um then the uh the government is it's got its own propaganda work that it's out there putting out to influence public opinion abroad and in the U.S. is very, very important. So uh we we've got a really people are really people stirring the pot, and then foreign countries doing this exact same thing.

SPEAKER_00 33:03

Is there anything I have not asked you about that you would simply just like us to know?

SPEAKER_01 33:10

Well, the role of money in media. Yeah, yeah, as a journalist, I'm concerned that the by the overconcentration of the US media, by the fact that six very wealthy, powerful men control the entire U.S. media. Uh the they own it and they censor what comes out in the media. Uh and this to me is terrible. It's always been this way. That's why rich men buy newspapers, but to be influential, but uh it's something that we need to be current concerned about.

SPEAKER_00 33:55

Well, Mr. Margalies, I really appreciate you spending time with me in the listening to I've uh thoroughly enjoyed our conversation. I I hope you have as well.

SPEAKER_01 34:04

Thank you. I have and I hope uh you've stood up and listening to my bad voice there, that I'd abuse you too much. But uh thank you for your intelligent questions. It's a pleasure to talk to you.

SPEAKER_00 34:21

You can learn more about Eric Margules and his latest book, War at the Top of the World, at Ericmargules.com. That's E R-I-C M-A-R-G-O-L I S.com. Thanks again to Eric Margales for spending some time with you and me in the ListeningTube. Follow the listening tube at thelisteningtube.com, where you'll also find Not the Headlines and This Week in History. While you're there, click on the green follow button or support the show by clicking on the Buy Me a Coffee link on the homepage. Thank you for putting your ear to the listening tube. I'm your host, Bob Woodley, for the infinitum.