Season 12, Episode Eight August 17, 2025

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This is the Listening Tube.

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Hello, and thank you for putting your ear to the listening tube. I'm your host, Bob Woodley. On this episode, we'll hear about a gas with a surprising twist. And I'll have a conversation with Safra Lerman, who is again nominated for the Nobel Peace Prize. I'll ask her if Donald Trump deserves it.

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But first, not the headlines.

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Three heads of state recently proclaimed that they were considering recognizing a Palestinian state. The British Prime Minister, the Australian Prime Minister, and the French President have joined a chorus of other countries, including Canada. More than a hundred countries already recognize a Palestinian state, most of which did so back in 1988. The fictitious Palestine has no leader, no territory, and no government. Yet there are other countries that recognize it. Where do they have their embassies, I wonder? The Western nations and American allies who have recently jumped on the Palestine bandwagon are doing so because they want to see an end to the war in Gaza, and feel that putting pressure on Israel will encourage Netanyahu to withdraw his forces and quit, leaving just enough of Hamas intact to rebuild and attack again. All the pressure is being put on Israel, and none of it on Hamas. No pressure to release the hostages they still hold, including dead bodies. No pressure on Hamas to surrender. No pressure on the International Criminal Court to charge the leaders of Hamas and Hamas terrorists with war crimes, not just against Israel, but also against the people of Gaza. So France, England, and Australia say they'll recognize a Palestinian state if Israel doesn't end the war. To those countries, I say, be careful what you wish for. Because now Netanyahu has taken you at your word and is taking measures to end the war promptly as you demand. Not by withdrawing, but by amping up the pressure on Hamas, by declaring the next and possibly last bastion of safety for Hamas, Gaza City, the target of an increased offensive to root out the remnants of Hamas and eliminate them from the face of the earth. Clearly, Hamas hasn't negotiated in good faith, making unrealistic demands, holding the hostages, even the dead ones, as collateral for their own protection. Hamas never intended to surrender or even achieve peace with Israel. They have no such goals. The only goal Hamas has is the destruction of Israel and the deaths of the Jews. Hamas has made it clear that they will not negotiate in good faith. These other Western nations can see that. Trying to reason with Hamas is a waste of time and energy. Therefore, they turn to the only participant with which reason may work, and that's Israel. The only reason Israel hasn't already blown the Gaza strip off the map is because of the hostages. Hamas knows that, and they've played that hand at every opportunity. Recent video of Israeli hostages showing them looking emaciated, with one man shown in a poorly lit tunnel telling the cameraman that he's digging his own grave. Hamas was sure to keep as many hostages as possible alive for as long as they can, but I don't think Hamas ever imagined their attack would result in a conflict lasting this long. The only thing keeping Hamas alive is the lives of their hostages. It's worked pretty well until now. But thanks to the pressure put on Israel by Canada, Great Britain, France, and Australia, the remaining hostages, as well as the remaining Hamas, will perish. Israel has no choice but to bring the hammer down on the last bastion of safety for Hamas, Gaza City. I hope Australian Prime Minister Albanese, British Prime Minister Starmer, and French President Macron will sleep better at night, knowing that their impatience will lead to more death and destruction. The destruction will be in Gaza City, and the death will be of more Palestinian people, including the Hamas terrorists who started the war in the first place, and yes, possibly, if not probably, the remaining living hostages. Congratulations! You're gonna get what you demanded.

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Let's go back through the listening tube for this week in history.

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This week in 1868, French astronomer Pierre Jules César, Jensen, discovers helium. Wait a second. Astronomers look at the stars. How does an astronomer discover an element? I'm going to look when uh he's gonna look at them.

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He's really gonna do it.

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Well, there seems to be a little bit of debate about who discovered helium. Wikipedia says there's no reason to believe Jansen deserves any credit at all for the discovery. Wikipedia gives all the credit to a man named Norman Lockyer, a contemporary of Jansen. Both men were studying the chromosphere at the time. But Britannica points out in the very first paragraph of their biography of Pierre Jansen that both he and Lockyer discovered how to observe solar prominences and helium gas at about the same time. Britannica emphasizes it that both men made the discoveries independently.

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But that's not the question. How does an astronomer discover an invisible gas? Because they figured out how to use different ways of looking at what the sun expels out from itself, and those different ways reveal the presence of specific gases. And knowing it was new, it was named after the Greek word for the sun, helios, by Edward Franklin and Norman Luckier. So there's no evidence that Jansen ever gave it a name. So I'm going to give the credit to Luckyer.

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The 1900s.

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Today, we have Los Angeles, California.

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The Listening Tube will return at the speed of sound. Send email to thelistening tube at outlook.com.

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My guest this week is Zafra Lerman, founder and president of the Malta Conferences Foundation and author of Human Rights and Peace, a personal odyssey. Zafra spoke with me from her home in America's Heartland. You're the founder and president of the Malta Conferences Foundation. Tell me a little bit about that organization.

SPEAKER_01 8:20

Okay. The Malta Conferences Foundation is a non-for-profit organization that uses science diplomacy as a bridge to peace in the Middle East. But the Malta conferences started in the first one, it was held in 2003. So let me give some history. So I worked a lot on human rights, Soviet Union, China, Peru, Guatemala, Cuba. But after September 11, I suggested to the board of the American Chemical Society that we should concentrate on the Middle East and organize a conference that will bring together under the same roof scientists from all over the Middle East and for five days to develop collaborations on issues that one country cannot solve alone. For example, water is a big issue in the Middle East. You know, the countries in the Middle East are very close to each other. The borders are very artificial, mainly put there by the British. But nature, the environment, doesn't recognize these borders. So the water equadox underground across borders. And in order to solve the water problem, countries have to work together. So the idea was to develop collaboration on very important issues, including science and technology, education and all levels. And with that, to start building a group of people that I hoped will become a critical mass to work towards peace. In the beginning, everybody it was the heights of the Antifada. The Amtifada was the uprising of the Palestinians that resulted in a lot of suicide bombs in Israel and restaurants, buses, everywhere. People were killed and wounded because of suicide bombs. And here I'm suggesting suddenly to bring everybody together. In the beginning, there was silence and question. But at the end it was approved and we started walking towards what I thought will be one conference, but it's still going on because the participants saw so much value in that that they requested it. So the Malta Conferences Foundation is really the only platform in the world that brings these scientists together under one roof with several Nobel laureates. And we have now 700 scientists in the network and 17 Nobel laureates, many of them participated two, three, four, five, six, seven times because they believe in the cause. I like to use scientific terms.

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How did you find yourself in a position where you were able to create an organization that uses science to promote diplomacy? I mean, what parts of your experience made you realize that this was something you could do and that you had the tools you needed?

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In 1979, for Albert Einstein's birthday, there was an organization non-for-profit in the US that was formed in his honor, and it was the Albert Einstein Peace Prize Foundation. By that stage I didn't understand that I'm doing science diplomacy, but this is how I started being involved. The Albert Einstein Peace Prize Foundation was giving every year a peace award. Many of these people went on and got the Nobel Peace Prize. So the idea was to bring together Israeli scientists, agronomists, and Egyptian agronomists to work together to develop a cultural settlement like one that exists in Israel, and it's called the Mushab. So this was the structure that the Albert Einstein Peace Prize Foundation wanted to adapt. And why was it so critical? Because the Nile in Egypt used to flood for miles and it had a lot of nutrients. So the agriculture, miles from the Nile, was wonderful agriculture because of that. But then when the Russians built the Aswan Dam for the Egyptians, they did not take into account the importance of the flooding and the Nile stopped flooding. And then all this area became arid land and caused a lot of trouble to the agriculture. Therefore, the idea was to use the Israeli methods of having agricultural settlement and with that bringing together the two nations. But there I learned the most important rules for success in the Malta Conference. Why? Because the Egyptian delegation had with them Dr. Mahoun Massoz, that was President Sadat's health minister. But he was an MD, PhD, the head of the cancer research, a wonderful person. And he said to me, before we even start meeting, because I was sitting, you know, we had we arrived, we had dinner all of us, all the Americans went to sleep because they had jet lag. Israelis went to take a walk on the water, and the Egyptians sat on the balcony, and I joined them. And they start telling me what I have to communicate in order to have a successful conference. So they said, you have to understand that the Americans always come like 800-pound gorilla from above. Look what we can show you. Look what we can teach you. If this will happen, we can go home now because nothing will happen. The only way that we can come out with something out of this project is if the attitude will be of equality. Let's see what we can learn from each other, not dictating from above. This is the number one rule. And we discuss a lot of things that you don't think about, and automatically they are being done. It's true. You always come and try to teach. And this is not accepted in this part. So I learned that if I want to be successful with the Malta Conference, everybody is equal there. And this was lesson number one. But as we were talking, the Israelis suddenly came, it was already one o'clock in the morning, and they joined in a table next to us, and I was sitting in the middle, and after a while it was one big table, and we started talking about what we can do together, really. And the American the Albert Einstein Peace Prize Foundation was formed by wealthy people that believed in peace, and they put their own money there. So they all came with their wives to this conference that was in a Just Yo Corsica, beautiful place. But they went to sleep. And as we are one o'clock in the morning, all of us already talking to each other, discussing important things, suddenly the windows were open, and the women screamed at me, Satra, you make so much noise that we cannot sleep. And I screamed back, you want to sleep, and I'm trying to achieve peace. So this broke the ice among these because they started laughing on this communication. But this taught me the second thing that was very important for Malta. Spouses will stay home, no accompanying members.

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Now, now, Zafra, this past April, Curiosity Review called you the Queen of Science Diplomacy. My question is: was there a queen before you? Or does that role originate with you?

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I think science diplomacy was not known for very many years, like when we did the Albert Einstein, the word science diplomacy was not known. So the name was given to me really by an Egyptian participant from Gaza, who is now, thank God, out because of my effort. My participants are in Egypt, they are out of Gaza for a year and a half already. But he referred to me as the Queen of Science Diplomacy, and it caught like fire. But I don't know where you read it, but Tuesday, August 19, there will be in Washington at the American Chemical Society meeting, a symposium in my honor. And one of the lectures is titled Safra the Queen of Diplomacy. But it's funny that you're mentioning it because I did not see it anywhere else in print.

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Well, I did my research. God, I wish I would know where you saw. Now, I I know you're a chemist, but I have a math question for you. Is science our one true common denominator?

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What you have to understand about science and why I think that science diplomacy can succeed where adult diplomacy fail is science is an international language. Science doesn't see borders, science doesn't see religion, science doesn't see language, science doesn't see culture. Science is just science. And therefore, I always like to say that a chemist from Bethlehem, Pennsylvania, I'm so happy that Bethlehem has a place called that Pennsylvania is a place called Bethlehem because I use my example, that a chemist from Bethlehem, Pennsylvania, and a chemist from Bethlehem on the West Bank can communicate to each other their chemistry without language. And this is why science the scientists are immediately uh connected. To each other, and it doesn't matter for where you are and what you are, this is what the people do, and therefore, I can we can do what other diplomacists can do. If people are arguing how can science be the ultimate truth where you have this fact, and first we had the Newton theory, and then came Einstein, and things change. So, how can you say science is the ultimate truth? This is the beauty of science, that it changes with more research, and it's still based on the truth. But therefore, my feeling is that science diplomacy will succeed. The point is that you have billions and billions or trillions of dollars spent in the world to build a weapon of math destruction. A small, small portion of that will go a long way to achieve peace, but there is no money for peace, money is for destruction, and this is the sad point, because a conference like that that has a hundred people, several Nobel lawyers, uh usually used to have it in Malta, the Republic of Malta, and therefore the name Malta Conferences because it started in Malta. And let me just say why Malta, because as I said, it started at the height of the Intifada. My feeling was that an island will be safer than the mainland. And second, to get to Malta then was very complicated because there were only very few places that had direct flight to Malta, like Rome, Frankfurt, London. So everybody had to change planes in Europe, and it took it took a whole day for a short distance from the Middle East to get to Malta. And my calculation was no terrorist would like to spend a whole day to get to a place to kill a lot of Muslims in future. So this is why Malta was selected as the place for the first conflict.

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Now, science in and of itself is a very general term. What specific sciences are most valuable when it comes to generating the desired diplomatic results?

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Almost every science can do it. So what is being discussed is chosen by the participant. So chosen according to their field. You can have a hundred people, and you will not have two people in the same field of science among 100. But the participants, but there are subjects that are more general, and subjects that really need all the scientists to solve the problem of water. You need chemists, you need geologists, you need biologists, you need hydrologists, you need physicists, so all the different sciences are needed for that.

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If I could just get off topic a little bit. Something that is obvious to them, but that the public hasn't yet figured out or accepted.

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You mean from a science point of view?

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From a science or a diplomacy point of view.

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From diplomacy point of view, is very obvious to the scientist that this is something that can walk all over the world. And but the general public cannot even imagine what does it mean, science diplomacy, and why would science subjects that a lot of people hate and always hated, why is that suddenly something that can do so much? There is one more thing, why it is in most countries of the world, not in the US, scientists are extremely respected. They have a very high status in their government. The status of scientists is completely different around the world than any other profession. But because of that, what I told the scientists they have a bigger responsibility to work towards peace. Because a lot of the bad things, science is a subject that can prolong life, and a science is a subject that can cut life very short. And the scientists therefore should concentrate on doing good for the world and walk towards peace. This is the example of Andrei Sakharov, that today, when I ask students if they never heard the name, the answer is no. So I will just, for your audience, say that Andrei Sakharov was a physicist in the Soviet Union, the father of the hydrogen bomb. And he got the Peace Nobel Prize, but the Soviets did not allow him to go and get it. I was lucky that I could meet with him, and before I went to the Soviet Union to work on human rights, he told me to take a crash course in Russian through his own interpreter that he had, he didn't speak English, because he told me if you just want to go and you will ask for a translator, it probably will be a KGB agent. So I took his advice. I had a clash course in Russian. I would come into the Soviet Union and be with a group of scientists always lecturing in the university. And after midnight, I would go by myself in dark alleys where I met dissidents. And a lot of dissidents were in hard labor in Siberia, in jail, and I would meet with them, we would go to a dark attic, and there there would be like 50 dissidents. All of them were fired from their job because they asked to emigrate from the country. And they were in very bad shape. So I would give them a seminar, distribute a lot of scientific material, and then bring back the resume and their CVs and work on their behalf. And many of them are I see in the American Chemical Society meeting today, and they would tell me that if I wouldn't risk my life for them, they wouldn't be here now. Seven.

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You've been nominated seven times. And who has anybody, was any anybody that notable that the general public might be familiar with who won it those years that you were nominated instead of you? Anybody stand out?

SPEAKER_01 31:26

anybody stand out in the years I was nominated, it's really usually somebody not very famous got it. It's somebody from a developing country for doing something. Not anybody that the public would know, or that I knew before the person got the Nobel Peace Prize.

SPEAKER_00 31:57

Are you currently a nominee? Yes. Yes. Okay, then I want to ask you this question. Do you think Donald Trump is worthy of a Nobel Peace Prize?

SPEAKER_01 32:12

Yeah, it's a very good question. If Donald Trump, as he says, in the next two weeks, will achieve peace between Russia and Ukraine, between Israel and Gaza, and he's already going to sign a peace agreement between Azerbaijan and Armenia. But those war, this war did not get the attention of the world. If he will achieve peace in all these wars that are going on, I feel that he will deserve a peace prize, not paying attention to other things, because anybody that can stop the number of people that were killed in Russia, in Ukraine, in Gaza, in Israel is huge, huge. If he can bring all this craziness to an end, yes, I feel it deserves it. If he deserves it for the Abraham Accord, I don't think so, because you do peace with people that you are at war. Israel was not really at war with the Arab Emirates or Bahrain or Morocco. They did not have a relationship with each other, but they did not fight with each other. So it's very nice to have relationships, but just to explain, we brought the Malta conference to Morocco in 2015. The Abraham Accord was in 2020. 2015, we had a conference in Morocco, and several of the Israeli Nobel laureates and I met with a lot of ministers and advisors to the king to discuss normalization between Israel and Morocco, because we felt that the time is prime for that. And they were immediately open to a scientific exchange. They said, let's start in stages, let's do first a scientific exchange. And this we are ready immediately, and from there we'll look at the rest. At the end, it became part of the Abraham Accord. But the way we work is without publicity, because you know we have to go on a tight rope. Too much publicity can harm us.

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That odyssey continues for Zafra Lerman. Many thanks to Zafra for spending some time in the listening tube, and good luck with that Nobel Peace Prize.

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And if that wasn't enough.

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And every year at this time, teams from around the world gather here to find out which teams are the best in the world, from among hundreds, if not thousands of leagues from places like Japan and Australia, Mexico and Venezuela, along with teams from around America, all of whom earn the privilege of coming to William Sport, be welcomed by a parade, treated like celebrities, and have young girls falling over them for about a week and a half if all goes well. It's free to attend the games, and they're all on ESPN now for the whole world to enjoy. But behind the scenes, for decades now, the players themselves are at the leading edge of international diplomacy. Mostly boys, age 11 or 12, are being exposed to other boys from other cultures, competing in a fair way and promising to not cheat. Along the way, they learn about each other, and misconceptions are vaporized, and prejudices are exposed as just that. Now, with today's technology, every one of them has a language translator on their handheld device. What used to require an interpreter is now accomplished by speaking into a machine and out comes another language, enabling instant familiarity and communication like never before. These relationships have been flourishing over vast distances for a long time, and now with instant communication with someone in front of you who speaks a different language, or after they go back home to other continents. By the way, there is also a Little League Softball World Series, and this year's champ is a team from Pennsylvania. Anyway, what these young baseball players learn about each other at their very formative ages will eventually develop into a greater understanding of each other. They'll know they can compete and still be friends. They will have seen prejudices and misconceptions about people from faraway places proven to be false, and they'll have a better idea of how important personal interaction is to relationships. These kids don't just play against each other. They live together while they're here. They spend free time together. I'm sure there are clicks, but for those who lead and venture into unknown territory by walking across the room to strike up a conversation with a kid from another country will benefit greatly from that exposure, especially in a controlled environment like the Little League World Series. These boys will grow up with the added benefit of a wisdom that most kids don't get. And just like Safra Lerman tells us, that type of exposure can lead to a greater understanding of each other on a personal level and a teamwork level, and may someday lead to peace. The Listening Tube is written and produced by yours truly, Copyright 2025. No new listening tube next week, as I'll be attending a high school reunion and observing the American Labor Day holiday. Thank you for putting your ear to the listening tube. Find every episode at my new website, thelistening tube.com. I'm your host, Bob Woodley, for the How Ad Infinitum.