The Listening Tube with Bob Woodley--A sidetrip through the Middle East with Amjad Tadros

SPEAKER_01 0:00

This is Hello, thank you for putting your ear to the listening tube. I'm your host, Mum Woodley. On this episode, I'll have a conversation with Emmy Award winner Umjama Pondros, who's been guiding foreign journalists around the Middle East for decades. But first. Allow me to share with you why context and punctuation are so important. The other night, I was on my way to bed when I met my wife in the hallway. She had gone to bed earlier, but couldn't sleep, and said she was going to go downstairs for a while. I went to sleep. When I woke up the next morning, she wasn't in bed, which isn't unusual since she often gets up much earlier than I, but I had no idea if she ever even came back to bed. I was under the assumption that she didn't have to work that day. I did. So I got up and went through my morning routine, got dressed for work, and walked down the steps and into the living room where I expected to find her. She wasn't there. I looked outside and her car was gone. On the wall near our refrigerator is a chalkboard we use to write down things we need from the grocery store. On the chalkboard that morning were three words left overnight. She had written those three words, obviously, before she left. Then I wondered if she planned on coming back. I should call her. So I did. She answered right away. I said, Hey darling, where are you? She said, I'm at work. I said, Well, the choke board says you left overnight, and I was just wondering if you were coming back. She started to laugh. I was confused. No, she said, we're having leftovers tonight. Well, that's not what it says. It says left overnight. From all I knew, she was on her way to Florida or the airport. It just goes to show how we can misinterpret communication if it's not done correctly or if it's taken out of context. I would have not been so confused if I knew she was scheduled to work that day. But I would still be wondering why she left in the middle of the night, based on how those three words were written on the chalkboard. Not in a line as if it were a sentence, but in a column with no punctuation. Her message could have been more clear if there were a hyphen between left and over. It could have also been modified by using the word it's prior to left as in is, left over night, or by adding an S at the end of over and to as a prefix for night. So it said leftovers tonight. Although we both enjoyed telling the story to our friends and associates, I must admit that at first, I thought I was in the market for a new wife. So does context matter? Absolutely. Does punctuation make your message more clear and understandable? You bet it does. Unfortunately, with today's text first call second lifestyle and the need for instant response, punctuation is often neglected, and words are replaced by acronyms with which the recipient may or may not be familiar. Bottom line is if you want to mean what you say and say what you mean, there are ways to do that effectively. Now, you might be thinking, well, but that's what you get for marrying some young trophy wife who writes like the kids do. In her defense, she did use whole words and not acronyms. And even though there was none, it wasn't necessarily the lack of punctuation that led to money confusion. What's important to remember is that what you think you're saying to somebody may not be what that person interprets it to be. Whether it's a simple text or a note on a chalkboard, using complete words and punctuation will go a long way in reducing the possibility of being misunderstood. And if you have something important to say, you want it to be understood, don't you? If you're going to go out on a limb and make your own protest sign instead of using the pre-printed ones, you want to make sure your message is clear. If you're sending a text, you don't want the recipient to respond with what? Make yourself clear the first time. It'll make life easier for everybody. If you're writing a letter, I guess you could use AI to help you. But I've seen some bad grammar come out of AI written material. So it's good to know the rules yourself. But if you have something to say, I want you to be not just heard, but understood. I want you to be clear in your guidance and instruction. And knowing how to write it down properly is a power accessible to anyone. Punctuation makes your words more powerful, more sincere, more accurate. It's easy to mean what you say, but being able to say what you mean is more important. And there are no good shortcuts when you want to make sure you're being understood. Especially if you're saying it with your thumbs. Or if you don't want your spouse to think you left them in the middle of the night. I'm sure nothing happened anyway.

SPEAKER_00 6:41

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SPEAKER_01 6:53

My guest today is a man whose experiences are like none other. For 30 years, Umjad Tondros has been showing the roads to foreign journalists reporting from the Middle East. His experiences are now in a book called The Fixer, a journalist's accidental journey through the Middle East. Now, Mr. Tondros, when I look at what you've been doing for the past 30 plus years, it's not hard to recognize that you have been performing two very important roles in the world of journalism. One, as a journalist, and two as a local guide for foreign correspondence in the Middle East. Which of those two things have you found to be the most challenging?

SPEAKER_02 7:51

Well, you know, I mean, my career kind of uh morphed from one into the other, you know. So uh at the beginning I was hired to be a fixer, and I didn't even know what a fixer means. You know, uh so I just showed up at one day uh because I was just you know desperate to get a job, and someone told me that there is a news organization at the hotel here in Amman, and they pay well, and they're just looking for people. So I showed up, I was 21 years old, I was you know energetic, you know, I could run. And they looked at me and they asked me, Do you speak English? I said, I do speak English. In fact, I'm a graduate from a British university, I have a you know a degree in engineering. And they said, Okay, you're hired for the next two days, and we'll see how that goes. So they hired me as a fixer, and I didn't even have no, I had no idea what television business is all about. So they just sent me out to film with a crew, and I didn't even know what crew means or what anyway. So I just showed up and I worked with the with the, you know, we went out filming, and at that time, the first day of my job, I was sent to a refugee camp to film the refugees that were uh that they came out of Kuwait after Saddam's invasion in 1990. So and then you know I started to learn the ins and outs of the business. But basically, you know, we were hired to be fixers, which means you can do anything. You have to make coffee, you know, book airline tickets, find people to interview, uh, look for story ideas, uh uh whatever it takes, you know, to get the news on television. And uh so that was my my my my career at the beginning. And then you know, with time, you know, I started getting more and more involved in the business and I started doing more editorial stuff, which became, you know, so I became a journalist, so to speak. But you know, when I wrote the book, you know, the first the book was called The Accidental Journalist. And uh because you know, my title at CBS News was produced uh, you know, I was the producer. And at some point, you know, I changed the name back to the fixer. And uh my boss called me, my ex-boss called me, and he said, Amjad, why did you change the book, the the name to the fixer? I thought you didn't like to be called a fixer, because in the past, many of my colleagues thought the word fixer was a derogatory term, and they actually said, No, we can't we are not fixers, we are producers. So, in fact, at that time, CBS News issued a memo saying you you only have to call those people, you know, uh producers, field producers. You should not call them fixers. But at that time, I said, no, no, Andy, you know, I'm I'm happy to be called the fixer because I was the best fixer in the business, and I never it was never my intention to be a producer. I was happy to do what I was doing because you know I was very good at it. So why should be like just another producer? You know, no, I was the fixer. Uh so I called the book the fixer, and uh this is where the name came from. And many of my you know friends now make fun of me, they call me the fixer, and I'm very happy to be called the fixer. So I was doing just two things, you know, I was a fixer and a journalist. But you know, I mean, at the end, you know, I became you know uh a you know a journalist in a way, you know. I did a lot of stories, you know. I won four Emmys, a lot of people, and I did a lot of work. And now, you know, I write, you know, and I at the end I wrote a book as well. So you can call me both.

SPEAKER_01 11:04

Now, the the book uh uh uh to make it official, it's called The Fixer, a journalist's accidental journey through the Middle East, and it is uh a chronicle of your experiences, correct? Yes.

SPEAKER_02 11:19

I'm basically, you know, what I what used to happen is that I used to go out, you know, and do all these stories, traveled, you know, to Iraq, to the to the Gulf, to Yemen, to all these places that you know, and you know, I've been through wars, I was injured, I was bombed in 1993, I got to meet Saddam Hussein in hospital bed in a very funny story, and I met a lot of interesting people. And I used to go back home and I would just sit and you know hold court, and my friends would say, like, oh, oh, oh, tell us, tell us more. And you know, I was a storyteller. And you sometimes people invite me to parties just because I'm a storyteller. And uh with time, you know, a lot of my friends told me, you know, you should not keep your stories to yourself, you should write them down. And I said, Well, it's not easy to write them down, you know, because I, you know, in fact, you know, in my past life I failed my all-level English. So I said, like, I can't even write. I said, we have to try. And uh and then at some point I thought, you know, I have to do it. So I sat down, and at that time there was one guy who was working with me called Andrew, and Andrew told me, I will help you. And Andrew is just, you know, an American guy who showed up in the Middle East and he was interested in the history of the Middle East and journalism. And we sat down in a cafe and we just wrote an outline of the book, and I started filling it. And bit by bit the book started to take shape, and it was built, it was like building a you know a puzzle, you know, adding story here, story there, and we just arranged them together, and the book started to get shape. And then at some point I got fed up because nobody wanted to publish it, nobody was taking me seriously. So I abandoned the project for a few years, and then at some point I said, okay, I have to come back and do it. And you know, three years ago I retired from my uh from CBS News, and I thought, you know, now it's time to write the book. So I you know I took back the old copies and we started rewriting again, and I got an editor, and we did the whole thing, and we put the book together and uh we published it.

SPEAKER_01 13:11

I have no doubt there are many wonderful and insightful stories to be told. Do you have a favorite?

SPEAKER_02 13:18

Well, it's very difficult to pick your favorite story. In fact, you know what the book is 130,000 words, which is a long book, you know, because usually the books are about 100,000 words. And you know, some people said you have to cut it down. And but for me, every story was so valuable. You know, when I sat down to write it, one day my niece was looking over my shoulder and she said, Uncle, what are you doing? What I what is this book about? And she's six years old. And I said, It's about war. And I wanted to describe war to people. And my first line in the book is a line from an Arabic poetry from the Abbasid from the Jaheliyyah period. And uh the the line reads, war is only what you have known and tasted. No narrative can describe it well. And I my main motivation was to describe to people what war is all about and how horrible it is. And you know, uh and during my career, you know, we lost a lot of my friends, you know. My lot of my friends were killed, they're dead because you know, we went out to cover wars. And I thought it would be, you know, for everybody's uh good memory to document all these stories. And then later, you know, uh now we hear all this, you know, the collapse of the media in the United States and what's happening with CBS News. I'm sure you've heard about it. And you know, all the accusations that have been leveled against us as being fake news and whatever. And I thought, you know, it's my duty to document all the good work and the hard work we put in to try to tell the people what's what's really going on here in the Middle East. Like, you know, we went to places like Yemen, we went to Iraq, we went to Egypt during the revolution, Libya, Syria, all these places. And you know, and we did the really good work, and we tried our best to tell the people what's going on, and we paid heavily for that, you know, in terms of time, effort. People were injured and died. You know, I got to I was shot at three times, you know, and uh personally, you know, and we took it seriously, and you know, we were not playing games, we were actually very serious journalists, and it was I thought it was a duty to write it down. Now, what is the favorite story? There are many, you know. One of the best stories there is in the book, which could be a movie, it is uh one day, you know, I was sent out to find this guy called Curveball, who was the Iraqi defector that told the Americans back in 2000, you know, just before the Gulf War, that Saddam Hussein has weapons of mass destruction, has a factory. And this guy, uh, you know, in whose testimony Colin Powell went to the United Nations in 2003 and presented these photos of the so-called mobile trucks. I remember that. And on his testimony, the US went to war. It took me four years traveling to seven countries to find him. Imagine. And uh, so the history is known, but what is not known is how we found him. So the chapter is called Catching Care of War. It says how we caught him. And it is, you know, it's it could be a spine novel because on its own. Another favorite story in there, uh, one day I showed up in Yemen and by absolute mistake I met this guy, and he turns out to be that he was Sam of Bin Laden's bodyguard. And uh, you know, I convinced him at the end to sit down and talk to us. And it was for the first time we actually talked to a terrorist, you know, who is not shouting, because usually when you see terrorists on television, it's either you know they're carrying guns and shouting, and you don't know what they're talking about. And this guy, we sat with him and he took us to his house and with his kids and family, and he told us his story, which is most riveting. Of course, we were accused by many that you know we're putting you know a human face to terrorism, probably true, but at the same time, we explained to people why this guy ended up to be who he is. And uh and this is basically my this is what the book you know, it gives you the background. Why do we why do war start? What's happening here? What happened in Iraq before the war? And you know, there are very, very amazing, interesting stories about all the stories we did in Iraq before 2003 war, because in 2003, what people don't understand is that Saddam Hussein at that time did not want the war. Although, you know, forget what you hear on television and all the public statements they made. They were terrified and they tried their best to get out of the war. And in fact, you know, uh they invited you know CBS 60 Ministers at that time to do a lot of stories in Iraq. And basically, the in their intention was to show the world that they actually were not guilty as they were charged. And we did a lot of stories about you know spies and double agents and all the people who were telling them different stories. And one day they took us into the intelligence headquarters in Baghdad, one of the most horrible places in the world. And they presented us with this guy called Abdul Rahman Yassin. And who's Abdurrahman Yassin? He was an Iraqi-American who was accused by the FBI and the American government of being part of the uh in the 1993 bombing of the World Trade Center. And by some stupid story, this guy ended up in Iraq, and you know, he's wanted, right? He's still wanted on the FBI, you know, I think there's $10 million prize on his head or something. And they said, okay, there he is, take him, give him back to the Americans, we don't want him. So there are a lot of all of these stories that you know that are in the book. And there are some nice stories, there are interesting stories about you know places like Qatar and uh Dubai and why Dubai is what Dubai is, and why Qatar, you know, what they did. And you know, there are stories about the revolution, the civil war in Syria, what happened there, what happened in Egypt. And there are three chapters about Yemen. And Yemen is one of my favorite countries. It's a very, very interesting place. It's, you know, thousands of years of history, very interesting people, and it is absolutely neglected and forgotten. And the people there have been, you know, they got a really, really bad deal. And it's still happening till today. And people don't understand why why Iran is this way. And I tried to explain as much as I could. I know I'm not I was trying to to give excuses or to be propagandists for anybody, but I was trying to do is just to tell people what I have seen and let them make up their mind. You know, I'm not going to make opinions for people. I am, you know, my I am just a storyteller and just a witness. But I got a good opportunity of getting what we call the front row seat to history, and I thought it was my not duty, but it was it's good to uh you know let people uh know what happened.

SPEAKER_01 20:13

Umjad, now obviously these stories have been compiled over a number of decades and they're they're available to us now, but in hindsight, do you wish that you had told any of these stories back then when they were topical and current?

SPEAKER_02 20:34

Probably, you know, uh, but uh they you know, again, as I said in the book at the beginning, you know, uh I you know I was caught in the middle. You know, I am most uneducated, I understand the Western world, I know what the Americans mean when they say something, I can understand where it leads. I also at the same time an Arab, I'm the son of, you know, twice, two-time Palestinian refugees, and I know what's going on here. I know when Saddam Hussein gives a speech, what does he exactly mean? And the problem is that both parties talk over each other, they don't understand each other. And most of these wars could have been avoided if just somebody sat down and tried to listen and understand what the other person is doing. You know, we did a lot of stories about the 9-11 hijackers, and we traveled the world, we went and met their families and we saw where they came from. And you know, why would somebody like Mohammed Hata go to America and study to be a pilot and spend a year or a year and a half of his life to go in an aeroplane and kill himself? I mean, is he crazy? Seriously? Okay, and what made him do this? You know, I'm not trying to be apologetic. What they did is is absolutely terrible and you know, it's you know it's insane, you know. But at the same time, there are root causes behind these actions. You know, these people did not come from space and just went and killed themselves. They they you know, if you look at where they came from, reasons behind it and people under you know understood what was going on probably many many of these incidents could have been avoided and you know people's lives have been saved and probably the world would have been a better place but unfortunately we always go back to the square one and of the same thing and you know the scenarios keep repeating themselves. It's so sad. You know like you know the Americans when they came to Iraq in 2003 many of the soldiers came in with the best intentions they thought they're going to bring freedom and democracy to the Iraqi people. And the Iraqi people many of them were happy uh you know that they that you know they got rid of Saddam Saddam was a horrible guy by the way he was a nice guy and then suddenly you know after a few and when the Americans came in there were a lot of lot of optimism I've seen it myself firsthand and uh many Iraqis thought that this is it for them will be freedom and the Americans are coming in and they're bringing Coca-Cola and McDonald's and none of that happened. In fact it just turned out to be a very very big flop and they took Iraq into a very bloody civil war that just many people died needlessly American reputation has been tarnished you know in a huge way and they just left and they they left the country as it is and you know they're talking about nation building and democracy and none of that happened. And now the same scenario is being you know we hear it every day in the news now with Iran. Okay and Iran if you thought Iraq was a picnic wait till you see what Iran is okay because Iran is a country of 90 million people is the size of France and Germany put together it has thousands of years of history Iranian people are very proud people they you know they don't like the regime not not all of them uh you know but some do you know do you think that all the Iranians are against the regime? No you know a lot of Iranians who actually believe in the propaganda of the regime they believe in the so-called Uraith alfaq they believe that you know the Murshid is an inspired person and they're going to fight for it and you know some people think that you know maybe 80% of the Iranian people are against the regime but the 20% who are for the regime are going to fight with their teeth to the end. They knew what was going on and they are not idiots you know they are actually very pragmatic people. I'm not defending them by any stretch you know I don't defend any regime based on religion but at the same time you know they you know talk to them don't you know before and you know see what they're angry about and try to avoid this because what we're seeing in Iran is just terrible I can see Iraq happening again but worse.

SPEAKER_01 24:40

Well I uh from what I understand from what I've been learning in the Western media is that I I believe that the United States is going to take an entirely different approach with Iran than they did with Iraq and I hope I hope that's the case.

SPEAKER_02 24:54

I I I honestly hope I I hope that they have a plan. You know I was one of the very few people in in Iraq in before 2003 who actually thought that the Americans had a plan and they're going to come in and liberate the country and bring in democracy. I actually believed in this thing and my and my friends you know now tell me you know you you know see you're an idiot okay because they showed up with no plan you know no plan whatsoever and for a country that is just you know and what happened you know we've got civil war and Iran I'm afraid is going to be the same thing. I would love to hear the plan how they are going to change the regime how are you going to put in your regime that is you know less bloody and less violent than this one how are you going to bring in you know I don't want to call it democracy but stability to the country because look every time you know you change the regime you get somebody worse Russia you know they had you had the revolution whatever when they got rid of Yeltsin who did you get up who did they get Putin Putin okay look look yeah yeah look what happened in uh Libya they got rid of Gaddafi who would you get you know a bunch of mini Gaddafis you know uh Egypt you know that there was a revolution at the end the army took back uh took over the the to took over power you just cannot do this this is not doable I wish that they can do it you know I'm not saying you know I'm I'm I'm I'm not for the Iranian regime by any stretch but find us a way to change the country make it you know part of the uh uh civilized world and let's move on but you know what they are talking about they want to bring the son of the Shah this guy has been out of the country for 47 years nobody in Iran knows his name okay and his father wasn't a nice guy either and now they want to come put him in charge I mean come on yeah I don't I don't think the Iranian people want the son of the Shah or the the son of the Shah back and and and there is uh a parliament in exile called the the uh commission for the um resistance of Iran and um we'll we'll see what happens there but I mean I wish we're gonna seriously I'm you know I you know I'm I'm I'm sitting in a man now and every you know couple of hours till today just half an hour ago we get silence because the Iranians keep thinking throwing missiles over our heads trying to hit Israel okay and we're just sitting like you know sitting ducks here you know hoping that those missiles don't fall on our heads and actually some of them do fall here you know three days ago one missile fell like you know you know half a mile away from my house and uh and we we have nothing to do with this and the Iranians lashed back of course because you know like now they accuse them of being you know those people they put them you know their uh shoulders against the their backs against the wall they told them we're going to come and kill you all and what do you expect them to do just sit there and wait what they did they lashed out of the Gulf countries and must most of those countries have nothing to do with this war and what they did they just went and bombed you know uh Dubai they bombed Abu Dhabi they bombed the the gas field of Qatar you know I mean this gas field of Qatar people don't know what it is you know I have seen it myself actually I was lucky enough to fly over it you know the Rasla fan at the gas field of Qatar it's a wonder one of the wonders of the world the Qataris have built something that's absolutely unique in the middle of the ocean they built this gas field that's making them a lot of money a lot of money okay but the Qataris did not keep the money to themselves honestly I mean what they have built they built you know Qatar is one of the most you know advanced countries in the world they built hospitals they built schools they built universities they built you know you you just saw the World Cup what they have done this is this is everything came from that gas field that the Iranians just bombed we have to move forward in the Middle East they are you know they brought us back they brought Qatar back five years it will take them five years to get back to where they were okay this is if the war stops tomorrow. And you know I wrote about these things for people to understand you know what it's what this is all about. We Arabs we are not hooligans we are not murderers we're just people you know we have the same aspirations the same hopes you know we would like to be the like the rest of the world but instead every five years we get dragged into another war and another war and because and people just because simply nobody wants to understand what to who we are. And that's what I try to explain in my book.

SPEAKER_01 29:19

Now I I would imagine being a journalist in that part of the world is as interesting and as complicated as you want it to be what I'm interested in hearing from you is what is local reporting like where you live is it local government does it cover sports uh a new place of worship being built what what makes local news where you live well I mean the whole thing about what news is is all about I mean news is local news is very important.

SPEAKER_02 29:55

People want to hear local news they want to hear the you know what the weather forecast they want to hear the traffic situation they want to hear what's happening in different parts of their country before even they start to understand international politics. So yes in most Arab countries we have news organizations but most of them are government sponsored or government run. And for many many years they have failed to provide people with answers to problems. So people unfortunately with time stopped trusting the local media nobody in Jordan watches the local television nobody you know we don't even know how to tune to it honestly speaking and that opened the door for information coming out from abroad. Okay so people start listening to foreign broadcasts the foreign you know at some point the Qatar's you know a few years ago they filled the gap when they established Al Jazeera news channel I don't know if you are aware of it. And uh Al Jazeera provided you know fresh or breath air for the Arab people because they start putting more news that is in that talk about the problems and so on. And that created a little bit of a movement in the in the news business in the Arab world so other channels try to imitate it and so on which was good. But at some point again everybody you know uh starts following the same you know news and the same you know the the government all the governments in the Arab world are at the end of the day are more powerful than the people said they took over the media again. And then we got the social media and the Facebook involved and the Facebook has been and the so you know has been very effective you know you know the Egyptian uh revolution was caused by Facebook it was called the Facebook revolution but again after time the governments realized what was going on they built their own you know uh armies was called electronic armies to try to put their message and take over the social media and they were very successful and now we have AI coming in and again I'm sure they have you know because the governments have more money and more time than you know the ordinary people so yes and that creates a lot of lot of problems. On top of that now and I always tell people we Arabs you know most of our history was written by foreigners. You get the all the foreign correspondents showing up with their own ideas their own biases their own you know I'm not saying they are biased but you know they come with our uh you know our ideas and they try and they wrote about us. And I keep telling people if we don't write our own history somebody else is going to write it for us and we're not going to like it. So I thought you know for me to document these things as an Arab, as a local to put in the local angle the local uh breadth to the news would be better. So the more us Arabs you know put these things online and put them out you know we will get our point of view across because otherwise other people are going to come and write it and then we're going to like it we are not going to like it. So you know I'm I'm not trying to be a saint or anything but these are the facts of life this is what's happening. And I think it is important for us to write the the history. When I wrote my my my book I was invited by um a professor from Oxford University called uh Dr. Eugene Rogan Eugene Rogan wrote a very very interesting book called The Arabs and talks about the history of the Arab world and uh what he used uh when he wrote about the history of Damascus in the late 1800s he used the notes from a barber in Damascus called Adil Buderi and Adil Buderi used to go home every night after he closes his barber shop and write a memoir about what people were talking about in his bar in his barber shop. And Professor Rogan used Adil Buderi's notes to write the history of Damascus in that era so when he met me he said and who are you I said I am the barber I am I am I did exactly what the barber did I wrote the notes and I have seen and you as a you can take it and write a history book after you know now you've done a lot of work with uh 60 Minutes and CBS news so I'm I'm guessing you've spent a lot of time escorting American journalists around the streets of places they had never seen before. Totally well now you don't have to mention any names if you don't want to but I just have to ask what's the stupidest thing you've ever seen an American journalist do well I mean you know with all due respect to the 60 minutes correspondence a lot of them are very professional and actually you know uh know their way around like you know I worked with Bob Simon yeah the the late Bob Simon I don't know if you remember him I mean Bob Simon you know it was like my father he taught me the NS out of television and to be fair he was you know his depth of knowledge was just remarkable but you know you get then you know sometimes you get the cowboys showing up not from 60 minutes but usually from the news division who have no idea what's going on and uh I remember one time we took one famous correspondent to Damascus with a lady and I don't want to mention her name and in the morning she came to me and she said Amjad what do they mean by police state I said like you know it's police state when the government you know basically spies on people and you know checks on people and listens to their phone calls and she said do you think they knew that we talked to that guy yesterday I said that guy was the representative of Hamas that we spent two months trying to get permission to talk to him from the government I said of course they knew that we talked to that guy yesterday because you know I mean do you think in Syria during Assad's uh uh rule we could step out of the hotel without them knowing what we were doing and I mean she had no idea and then and she said and do they listen to our phone calls I said of course said she said do you think they would listen to my phone call last night I said probably and she said oh I was talking to my boyfriend that's it I'm sure they got all the the the sourcy details about that conversation so yes you get that but at the same time no you get people like you know Bob Simon Leslie Stoll who is a very very very good correspondent uh who is actually you know uh I mean I have the highest respect for her and you and we have very good producers who actually you know and they're very good people by the way have you ever played any jokes on on any of the newbies who came there or is there any sort of uh initiation right uh yeah but uh yes I mean because what what happened you know especially in Iraq after the 2003 war you know many journalists went there just to make names for themselves like you know I did I reported from Iraq and essentially what they were there for they were for you know you know a couple of days and they left you just want to put it on their CV. And uh one time I called my boss I said like listen this is this is not a vacation here it's actually serious and it's dangerous. So stop sending people who don't know where they're going and at least don't you know and uh yes but uh uh you know for 60 minutes no I mean I have to you know the their correspondents or at least the people I worked for at that time you know the Mike Wallaces and the Ed Brades of the world you know were uh you know very professional and they and they they they listened you know no they they actually listened to us when they showed up we would tell them you know the the story and some of them you know because you know they do different stories all over the world so you know we give them a good brief and all these people are and what the story is all about and they you know they do understand and they actually you know come in with with an open open mind. I'm glad they took your advice I'm sure you are too yeah most of them did I mean this is what they paid me for you know to to do that for them.

SPEAKER_01 37:54

As an American I I confess that we often make the mistake of assuming everyone else in the world is just like us. Is there one thing that you wish Americans would remember or perhaps forget about some misconception we may have about where you live in Jordan?

SPEAKER_02 38:19

They have to you know the the thing in the Middle East you know these are ancient societies you know uh you know Iraq you know the the history goes back I don't know two three four five thousand years Egypt seven thousand years Iran in eight thousand years and those people have proud you know the uh Arabs in general are proud people you know if you could come to an Arab and you know yell at him to take his wallet you know or point a gun in his face and say okay just give me your wallet he's going to probably fight you back and maybe die in the process. If you talk to him nicely he'll give you his wallet and you know his you know citizens' wallet. You know it's it's you know we are different. You know there is a lot of tradition uh there is history there is dignity uh that you know some people don't you know Americans usually show up show up and they think you know they can just buy their way in and it doesn't work all the time. I mean sometimes it does but in most cases it doesn't you know uh there is a lot of uh you know new indignities that you have to deal with and you have to drink a lot of teas before you start talking to people you just can't just show up somebody's house and start asking for favors and you have to go there sit there and talk drink three cups of tea and talk about children and you know and then start you know talking about whatever you're there for and uh but sometimes a lot of Americans unfortunately they come in and uh you know they just think that this is a business and transaction and unfortunately it doesn't work this way here you need to you know understand the local um uh attributes so to speak you know there is one interesting thing you know um when we met there when I met Osama bin Laden's bodyguard you know I mean I spent a lot of time talking to him and believe it or not he loved Kentucky fried chicken so I used to take him to Kentucky Fried Chicken in Sanaa and we'd sit there and we would just he would tell me all sorts of things and one of the things you know you're yeah that that's it's all the stories in the book is that we always think that terrorists are very very efficient people you know we think they are like the characters from 24. And they're not they're actually just people who are chaotic they have families they have their wives calling them to you know asking them for things to do you know or not to be late they go to you know they take vacations sometimes and sometimes they go to sleep and and one of the the big uh incidents that happened in Yemen when the Al Qaeda decided to blow up the uh USS coal in the port of Aden you know they hired this guy and they put him on a boat with explosives and his job was to go into the sea and you know bomb the the the ship in the territory in the international water before it gets into port. That was what he did. And guess what the guy fell asleep and when he woke up the ship was already inside the port and he blew it up there and that created so so problems to Al Qaeda it was they were not supposed to do you know because you know the guy just fell asleep. I mean he wasn't that efficient as we think you know and uh so there are all these stories I mean be about like because these people at the end you know they are terrorists call them whatever you want but they're humans at the end of the day they have you know problems there like everybody else and uh so yes so don't assume anything when you show up that's uh with these people thank you alumjantadros for sharing some behind the scenes stories with us in the listening tube there are plenty more in The Fixer a journalist's accidental journey through the Middle East learn more at alumjantadros.comish books that's a mj t r o s dot com links again to alumjum who are spending some time in the listening tube the listening tube is written and produced by yours truly company right 2026 should have to some new places checking in Vilnius Lithuania Czech Republic and Homesdale Pennsylvania thank you for putting your ear to the listening tube on the listening tube at the listening tube dot com I'm your host Bumble Woodley for the infinite