The Listening Tube with Bob Woodley Politicians who should resign, and Zolal Habibi talks about changes in Iran

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This is the listening tube.

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Hello. Thank you for putting your ear to the listening tube. I'm your host, Bob Woodley. On this episode, we'll hear from Zolal Habibi, member of the Foreign Affairs Committee of the National Council of Resistance of Iran. But first.

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Not the headlines.

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I would first like to point out the shameful behavior of the governor of Minnesota and the mayor of Minneapolis. They have actively encouraged citizens to interfere with federal law enforcement actions, putting themselves and the agents in danger. These two office holders are using their positions to foment violence, then claiming it's the federal government that's causing all the chaos. Both of these men should resign immediately. Here's Governor Tim Walls in a televised statement to the people of Minnesota.

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ICE agents are going door to door ordering people to point out where their neighbors of color live. They're pulling over people indiscriminately, including U.S. citizens, and demanding to see their papers. And at grocery stores, at bus stops, even at our schools. They're breaking windows, dragging pregnant women down the street, just plain grabbing Minnesotans and shoving them into unmarked vans, kidnapping innocent people with no warning and no due process. Let's be very, very clear. This long ago stopped being a matter of immigration enforcement. Instead, it's a campaign of organized brutality against the people of Minnesota by our own federal government.

SPEAKER_03 1:48

Governor Walls, stop lying to your people. None of what you said is true. It's your fault that Minneapolis is in chaos right now. And if that wasn't enough, there's another politician or two who should also resign. Specifically, Senator Mark Kelly of Arizona. Senator Kelly has used his office as a pulpit to sow distrust and hopefully make service members doubt their chain of command through a video of himself and other politicians that the media is referring to as a mere reminder that service members don't have to follow unlawful orders. As you may know, the Pentagon investigated and is following up with procedures that may ultimately result in Kelly being demoted in rank and a reduction of his retirement pay. Kelly maintains that the Secretary of War nor the Commander-in-Chief get to decide what Americans in this country get to say about their government. And that's true. For average everyday Americans. But the circumstances are different if you're a retired naval officer, or for anyone in the military. What a lot of people don't realize is that when you volunteer to serve in the United States Armed Forces, you give up some of the rights you swear to protect for the rest. One of those freedoms you lose is, to a great extent, your freedom of speech. Captain Kelly knew this. Senator Kelly forgot. You're probably thinking, but Bob, he only told service members to not obey unlawful orders. What's wrong with that? Well, no service member needs to be reminded of that. The now infamous video was merely performative. Senator Kelly and the other contributors were just grandstanding, trying to provoke a reaction, make some waves. And it's true, there's nothing illegal about reminding someone of something they already know. But the media only reminds us that the video was only reminding service members about unlawful orders without reminding us about what the rest of the video said. It said, We want to speak directly to members of the military. In fact, it was Kelly whose part was used for that very phrase. And then Elisa Slotkin follows up with the premise of, we know you're under enormous stress and pressure right now. Really? Are they? By the way, she's also being investigated because of the video. When Senator Kelly appears again, he says, This administration is pitting our uniformed military, with Slotkin finishing the sentence by adding, and intelligence community professionals, with a third person finishing the sentence with, against American citizens. Allow me to put that sentence together for you. This administration is pitting our uniformed military and intelligence community professionals against American citizens. The video goes on to claim that, right now, the threats to our Constitution aren't just coming from abroad, but from right here at home. This video isn't just some innocent reminder to not follow unlawful orders, as the press wants you to believe. They neglect to also remind you of what the rest of the video says. It's a call for mutiny. All of the people in the video should be treated as such. Unfortunately for Captain Kelly, he's the only one still subject to the Uniform Code of Military Justice. Senator Kelly has filed a lawsuit in civilian court to stop the Pentagon from going forward with judicial proceedings against Captain Kelly. Perhaps Senator Kelly forgot that civilian justice and military justice work independently of each other. Regardless, Kelly's lawyers claim he's being denied his free speech rights, which, as I've already pointed out, you relinquish as a member of the military. They also claim that if Kelly's punishment proceeds, it will give the executive branch power over the speech of the legislature. That's only true if the entire legislature was retired military. Kelly himself claims that all retired military could be threatened in the same manner if they say something the president doesn't like. Well, Senator Kelly, there is no president who will like when members of Congress call for a mutiny. And if one of them is retired military calling on current members to rebel, then that goes above and beyond your free speech and doesn't affect anyone else who's retired military and has a gripe. You crossed the line, Captain Kelly. All of your comrades need to be punished. But you're in a unique situation. You had a choice to make, Captain. You chose to file a lawsuit, or the equivalent of being set adrift in a lifeboat. We'll see where you end up if you endure the journey. Just remember, there's still time to climb back on board.

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Even if you eventually end up walking the plank.com.

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My guest today, Solal Habibi, is an Iranian human rights activist and a prominent voice for justice, democracy, and women's rights in Iran. She serves on the Foreign Affairs Committee of the National Council of Resistance of Iran, the NCRI, where she advocates globally for a free, secular, and democratic Iran. So Lal spoke with me from the NCRI headquarters in Paris, France. Were you born in Iran?

SPEAKER_01 8:40

Unfortunately, uh I am part of the generation that never had the chance to see Iran. My parents came to the US before the revolution. So I was born and raised in the US. And I've never been to Iran.

SPEAKER_03 8:54

Do you have friends, relatives in Iran that you stay in touch with?

SPEAKER_01 8:59

Yes, uh, I do. And also we have a very extensive network inside of Iran. So we are in contact with Iran, with the situation in Iran on a daily basis. And the reality is that despite the fact that I've never had the chance to actually visit Iran, I could sincerely say that there hasn't been a day practically in my life that I haven't thought about the people of Iran and what is going on there. So that is why I have actually dedicated 25, 26 years of my life to freedom in Iran.

SPEAKER_03 9:32

But you you are uh a member of the Foreign Affairs Committee of the National Council of Resistance of Iran. That is that the correct uh name of your organization?

SPEAKER_01 9:46

Yes, it is.

SPEAKER_03 9:47

Now, why are you a member of the NCRI? And what are the goals of the organization?

SPEAKER_01 9:55

Well, the NCRI is actually the um, it's like a the parliament in exile of the Iranian resistance. Uh it is a parliament in exile with over uh 500 members, 52% of which are women, and it represents different people from different beliefs, different walks of life, who have come together with only one goal in mind, and that has been to create a democratic, a secular democratic republic in Iran and to be able to overthrow the current regime. It was formed in July 1981, about one month after Khomeini ordered for the regime to open fire on peaceful protesters on June 20th, 1981. And um, the reality is that when you look at the history of Iran, especially since the 1979 revolution till now, the first protest uprising that we saw that uh really was a turning point in the history of Iran, in the history of fighting with this regime was on June 20th, 1981. So right now, a lot of people are saying that we feel those days are repeating themselves in a way. What we witnessed when it comes to the brutalities of the regime. We haven't seen things that are being carried out right now on the streets since the 1980s. But in the 1980s, this is exactly what Khomeini turned to to be able to keep his grip on power. There was suppression inside of Iran and executions, public execution, mass executions. And that was how the regime was able to keep its grip on power. So with that mentality, the regime was able to suppress a lot of the turmoil inside of Iran. With the end of the 19 uh with the end of the Iran-Iraq war in 1988, Khomeini felt that it's day his days would be numbered because he didn't have the excuse of a war anymore. And that's when he carried out the 1988 massacre, where 30,000 political prisoners were executed in a matter of five, six weeks. And right now, people inside of Iran are calling what we're seeing these past few days in Iran the third massacre. So the first was early 1980s, 1981 specifically, 1981, 1982. The second is 1988, and the third is what we are seeing right now on the streets inside of Iran.

SPEAKER_03 12:30

When and how did you become aware of the plight of the people of Iran?

SPEAKER_01 12:37

Well, um, that goes back to my childhood practically, but um, my father, who was a prominent writer and a human rights activist, so I became aware of the human rights situation in Iran when I was very young. Um, I think I was about four years old. The first time that I met people who were victims of torture, who had been able to escape Iran. Uh, they had come to testify at the US Congress and at the United Nations in New York, and they actually stayed at our house for about two weeks. And um that was when I first saw with my own eyes, you know, the the cruelty of the regime. But I always thought that this was that was what is happening in Iran, and we are living here in the US, so we're safe and sound, and you know, there there was that distance, even though I considered myself to be very lucky because I knew that children my age in Iran, how they were suffering, uh, even at four. I remember one of the people that, as I said, was a victim of torture that I had met. He had a daughter who was one year older than me, and I kept on making that connection. You know, what is she going through? Her dad was imprisoned, tortured severely, then was able to escape. Now her father is abroad, but she's inside of Iran. Like that whole it might be complex for a child, but that was like one of the things that, you know, I I remember feeling those things and seeing those things and you know, connecting with it. So to me, that man was like my hero. Uh, I always thought of him as a hero. I still do to this day for everything that he has been through and everything that he continues to do as a member of the Iranian resistance today. But very, as I said early on, I first found out that the regime sees no borders. In 1988, my father is uh was killed by the Iranian regime. And as I mentioned that summer the regime had 30,000 political prisoners executed in Iran. Yes, I I think that just changed my perspective of things, and from that moment on, I always felt like I have a responsibility, and I can't allow, I can't be passive. I can't allow the regime to have the upper hand in a way. I always took a lot of pride in the fact that my parents were both so dedicated to the cause for freedom in Iran. Um, I've always said that I think they were they served as the greatest role models for me, even though I was even as a child, I was separated from both of them. My father was killed, and then my mother joined the resistance, and so for our safety and security, we were sent back to the US by my mother continued to fight in the resistance. And I think that they taught me what's important in life, not with words, but with their own actions, and I think that's what's so valuable. And so from then on, this fight has been part and parcel of my life, and um it continues to be so more and more every day. And I think that finally, after over four decades, we are seeing that glimmer of hope and the fact that the Iranian people really feel like we have reached the final phase in the overthrow of this regime.

SPEAKER_03 16:07

Wh where was your father when he was killed?

SPEAKER_01 16:11

Um, my father was he had he, as I said, he was a writer, so he was working on a book and he was doing speaking to different people. He was at that time, he was in the border area of Iran and Iraq with the Iranian resistance, and um he was killed there. So he was killed in the border area of Iran and Iraq in Kermanshah.

SPEAKER_03 16:35

Has your life ever been in danger because of your advocacy for government reforms in Iran?

SPEAKER_01 16:43

Well, yes. The reality is that the Iranian regime, as I said, sees no borders when it comes to executions and eliminating its dissidents. Just for your information, uh, the Iranian regime has carried out over 500 terrorist attack uh attacks abroad outside of Iran. And for the most part, their target has been members affiliated with the Iranian resistance. In 2018, uh, we have normally the National Council of Resistance of Iran holds an annual gathering. We would hold it normally here in Paris, and um there was an attempted terrorist attack on our gathering. There were 100,000 people in attendance and over 500 dignitaries from around the world. Fortunately, that was unfoiled and the plot was not carried out. Um, but if it had been, it would have been the greatest terrorist attack on European soil after World War II. So that's um the extent of it. Time and time again, the Iranian regime has targeted the members of the NCRI and the MEK to try to eliminate them in whatever form and capacity it can.

SPEAKER_03 18:02

Well, certainly uh the Iranian leadership has other problems right now. Demonstrations are thriving in just about every corner of Iran. Thousands are reported to have been killed so far. Uh the Ayatollah is reported to be in hiding if he's even still in the country. The internet's been shut down. Some phone calls are getting through. What are you hearing from the people you know who are there now?

SPEAKER_01 18:32

The reality is that, as you said, the death toll has been very high in the thousands. We are still trying to gather all that information because, as you said, it's day five of the internet shutdown in Iran. Uh, since yesterday, some phone calls have been connected, but it's very limited and it's under control. So it's very it's not very easy for people to still communicate with the outside world. So we're gathering all that information. But what the message that is coming through, and I think this is something that's really important, is the fact that we see the people's defiance in the their continuation. The regime has started a bloodbath, really. There's a massacre going on right now as we speak in Iran, but the people of Iran are standing steadfast. They're not giving in, they're not giving up, they're continuing and they're fighting. I think what is most important, and this is one of the most uh, I think, distinctive characteristics of this uprising uh that we are seeing is the fact that you see the rebellious youth and the resistance units throughout Iran who are on the offensive now. They are the ones who are disarming the suppressive forces, they are targeting centers of repression, and they are standing united supporting one another. They are trying to release people who are being arrested on the streets, they organize together, and you see that structure in the protest. You see uh the fact that everyone is united on the streets together. The protest began with the issue of the collapse of the economy. It started with the strike in the bazaars. Um, you have to also remember that the bazaar plays an important role in Iran's economy, but also in the 1979 revolution, the point that the bazaar entered the revolution was a turning point. So we're seeing that again. But immediately, I think it was on the second or third day that the students joined. And so this solidarity continued to grow. And very immediately within hours, the main slogan of the protest became down with Khamenei, down with the dictator, down with the oppressor, be it the Shah or the Mullahs. So the people are giving a very distinct message. It's we want to end to this tyrannical rule, and we want to move forward in the 21st century to a secular democratic republic. We are not stuck between choosing between the current dictatorship and the past dictatorship. We're not going back in time, we're moving forward. We want to end to tyrannical rule in Iran, no matter what form and shape it comes in. So I think that is like the most important message that people are trying to give inside of from inside of Iran. The message is there is a third option when it comes to Iran. The message is that the solution to Iran, it's not foreign war, it's also not appeasement, it's supporting the Iranian people because they have the capability and capacity to create change. You have to remember that the Iranian people have this experience. If you look in the past century in Iran, all the dictators have been brought in by foreign interests. Reza Shah was brought in by the British. Mamad Reza Pahlavi was brought in by the US and MI6. And Khomeini was also brought in by Western powers. That was decided in Guadeloupe that we want to bring him in. It was the Cold War then. They thought, well, he's religious, so against communism, this is good. Russia is bordering, you know, USSR was bordering Iran and whatnot. So the Iranian people say, look, we do want support, we want solidarity, we want a firm policy on Iran, but we don't want foreign intervention. We have the possibility to create that change ourselves, but you can support us. How? Recognize our right to fight against this regime. Blacklist the IRGC, limit the Iranian regime's hands by doing so, help them hold them accountable for the killings and what they're doing, provide aid to us, provide internet, provide communication possibilities. Don't allow the regime to suppress us so easily and don't turn a blind eye on what's happening on the ground. So it's very simple what the Iranian people are asking for. They're not asking for too much. They don't think that something's going to be brought in. They know that they have to pay a price. They know that no one's going to hand us freedom in a silver platter. And that's why you see this defiance and this sacrifice that they're making. People know the risk of going to the streets, but they still take that risk. And I think that's what's important. And that is what the regime fears most, because the regime knows that this kind of dedication and sacrifice is not something that it can easily suppress. And I think there's also one more key element here, and that is that first of all, the regime knows that these people are organized. We have seen just so you know, there's this um strategy or tactic that we have had for over a decade now. The Iranian resistance in 2013 announced that it's necessary to create resistance units throughout every throughout Iran who will one day act as the liberation army for Iran. So people on the ground, because they're local, they can organize with one another, they can come together. And when they're not just individual people, when they're organized, they have that capability to stand in front of the suppressive forces. And that is what we're seeing right now. Like, for instance, in the city in Elam province, that was one of the cities that the regime started the massacre in during these protests. Uh they attacked the hospital, they they raided people's houses. But what was important was the youth, the rebellious youth there, they organized with one another. And so what were they able to do was they were able to liberate two adjacent towns in one night by just being organized and just making sure that they can get because they knew the city, they knew the people, they were able to organize everyone and push out all the suppressive forces and take control of the city. And the the I mean the scenes were beautiful of people celebrating because they knew that they were they were able to overcome this situation and they were able to move forward. So I think the Iranian regime understands that role right now, that organized structure that exists, and that is what they're trying to target as much as possible, and that's why they're having so many executions and killings to be able to spread fear in society. They fear nothing more than the Iranian people themselves, because Iran is a very large country. You have to understand Iran is very different geopolitically, geographically, um, with a lot of the other countries in the region. That's why troops on the ground are not going to help. It has to be the people of Iran who are able to create that change.

SPEAKER_03 26:21

What do you hope happens?

SPEAKER_01 26:25

Well, we hope that the Iranian people will persevere and we will, we are together, we're able to overthrow this regime and to be able to create an interim government to be able to build the democratic, a secular democratic republic. I think that we have the blueprint and the Bush is outlined and the 10-point plan presented by Mrs. Rajavi, but also the plans put forward by the National Council of Resistance for the six-month interim government, and then how the constitution will be written by an assembly, and then there will be free elections in Iran. So that is what people are looking forward to, to be able to create their destiny, to create, to take destiny into their own hands and create the free Iran that we all uh year enforced.

SPEAKER_03 27:18

What role are women playing in the demonstrations and do they want changes specific to women?

SPEAKER_01 27:27

Um, of course. Uh so you here's a little bit of background. Women play a significant role in the Iranian resistance and also in the fight uh for freedom in Iran. The NCRI, as I said, its president-elect is a woman, and 52% of the parliament in exile are women. In the MEK, the entire leadership of the movement are women uh because we believe women are the force for change. And it comes from this mindset that women have been systematically suppressed in Iran for decades. But these women have so much hidden potential in them, but it's like a spring that has been suppressed so much. When you take that pressure off, it's going to really jump. It has that much potential in it. And I think that um the Iranian resistance in its fight with this regime, they understood that if they want to fight this regime, because it's a religious tyranny, it's ideological, it's very important to be able to fight that ideology and that mindset. For 40 years now, the Iranian resistance has had women in power, and women's empowerment is really key, and women in leadership is very key in the Iranian resistance. And that has had its ripple effect on Iranian society. If you look at all the protests, both today and in previous years, you see women in the forefront of this fight. Because really, the women in every run they have paid a grave price for freedom in Iran, but they also see that this is their only way out of this barbaric regime, misogynist regime. And so they are they have nothing to lose in this fight. So they are very dedicated and they are always on the forefront. And they have this precedent. And these uh I always consider myself to be very lucky to be part of a generation that we had these role models in front of us. I remember even growing up in the US, my role model for women's empowerment was the Iranian resistance because even in society here in the US, even or every, I mean in the Western world, there's still a lot of glass ceilings when it comes to women and women in leadership, women in empowerment. At a time that Hillary Clinton said women's rights are human rights at the UN Women's Conference back in 1996. At that time, that the people's majority organization of Iran, its entire leadership council were women. The entire leadership council were women. So they were already women was in, you know, women's empowerment was a big issue in this movement. And this is a a new phenomenon that I think the world has yet to learn about. Hopefully, once Iran is free, there will be more time to discuss it. Um, but I think that is one of the greatest accomplishments that Mrs. Mayor Majavi has had. She has created a whole generation of female leaders who uh believe in equality. It's not an issue of push putting aside the men to have women come into power. No, in fact, this is uh we see the emancipation of human beings here, both women and men, who are now seeing their whole capability and capacity, and that is very empowering for all of us. So this is um what we are seeing in this movement, and that's you see it resonate on the streets in Iran and throughout the protests inside of Iran too.

SPEAKER_03 31:12

If women were empowered in Iran and their potential was unleashed and they were no longer suppressed in the way they are now, what could we expect to happen?

SPEAKER_01 31:24

I think that we will see a like the Iran will flourish, but we will see a new phenomenon. And I think that it can have its effect on not only the region but internationally, because we always need some kind of example to be able to follow suit with it. I think that Iran has always played a very important role geopolitically. If you look when, for instance, Dr. Mossadeb nationalized Iran's oil, we saw how it spread in the Middle East. Now, just imagine in the same Middle East that women take their rightful position in society as equals and they're able to pursue whatever fields they want. They're able to, you know, break through those barriers and move forward. I think that uh that will have a beautiful effect on the international community as a whole and the world. And I think that we will also see the growth of this unity and solidarity and just you know uh this cycle of women who are so dedicated that they are able to really make sacrifices for one another, for their country, and to be able to bring everyone together. So I think we will see a new value system in a way. I think we will see new humanitarian values flourish. And um, so we hope to be able to see that soon and the dawn of freedom in Iran.

SPEAKER_03 32:55

Now, one of the ways that I I perceive as women in Iran being oppressed is the restrictions on the way they're allowed to dress.

SPEAKER_01 33:04

Exactly.

SPEAKER_03 33:04

And will we see will what will happen there? Because now I'm looking at you right now, and I've seen photographs of you, and you still wear your headscarf, you're dressed very conservatively. It I mean, you're not up to Iranian standards, obviously, because your face is not covered. But you know, when I look at when I see pictures of uh on video of Iran uh back in the in the 70s before the revolution, there was Western style dress, there was Western style uh society. Is that something that Iranians uh want to move toward again, but under a uh non-theocracy?

SPEAKER_01 33:50

I think that I think you touched on a very good, uh, very important issue and a good issue too. I think that what what is most important is for people to have that freedom uh to make their own choices. Unfortunately, we've Iranians have experienced both under Reza Shah, the son, the father of Mohammed. Under his rule, he uh forced people to remove their scarves, and by doing that, he actually forced a great percentage of Iranian women back then into the house because people were like, Well, if I can't wear my hijab, I'm not leaving the house. And so he actually pushed them into the house that way. Khomeini did the opposite, he forced people to have the hijab and that way pushed half of society into the house and said, you know, a woman's role is to keep the house and be a mother and whatnot. What we have to say is, you know what? A woman is a human being, you have no right to dictate to any woman how to dress or how not to dress. It's their personal choice, it's their life, it's their bodies, it has nothing to do with you. So what is most important is to be able to first recognize that she is an equal human being as you, and you have no right to be judging how she should be dressed or how she should not be dressed. And I think that's really important to have that freedom in Iranian society. And it's not only when it comes to dress code, it's it's to everything, every aspect of their lives. Women need to have equal rights with men, and we believe in equity, so more than just equality, and I think that is a center stone of this movement and what we want to build for a free Iran. So I hope one day soon we will have it. This will not be an issue in do you wear a scarf or you don't. It should be of no one's concern. Everyone should be able to choose how they want to dress and how they want to present themselves because it's a personal choice and it's a personal matter, and no one should have that power to interfere in the decisions that you make in regards to your own life.

SPEAKER_03 36:16

Now, you were born and raised in the United States of America, but your attire does not suggest that. Obviously, you dress the way you dress for a specific purpose. Why is that?

SPEAKER_01 36:30

Well, um, that is a long story that we have, I think four minutes. I'm not even sure I can explain that all the important. Um, the reality is that it was a personal choice that I made um when I joined the Iranian Resistance um after, like at the paint play uh at the point that I was about 18 and a half, 19. Um, because for me, this isn't just a piece of piece of clothing. The message, first and foremost, is look at me as a human being without before saying, oh, this is a woman or a man, because unfortunately, that's the lens that we have in society. That's what we grew up with. For me, before it being a religious decision, for me, it is a personal choice that I've made. And I think I it has given me a lot of self-esteem. It's a as I've said, it's a personal story, so it doesn't fit in this time period that we have time that we have in today's.

SPEAKER_03 37:34

I was I was just curious because you know, in the United States, we're allowed to wear our pajamas to the convenience store.

SPEAKER_01 37:41

Yeah, I know.

SPEAKER_03 37:42

My wife doesn't like it when I do it, but we're still allowed to do that. So I was just curious about about your choice of attire and why why you why you dress in a in a traditional type of way. Uh one question, and I it probably isn't a quick answer to this one either, but what happens in Iran if the current uprising fails and the regime retains its grip on the people?

SPEAKER_01 38:09

The fight continues. The regime is in a very weak position right now. There's no way that it has reached a point of no return. But these protests right now began with the issue of the economy. In previous protests, whatever it was, the regime was able to get have some kind of a leeway, give in a bit on that issue, and to be able to calm down society a bit with the suppression, but using both sides of this cone to be able to keep its grip on power. This time, there is no point of return. The regime can't stabilize the economy. So this situation is getting worse and worse and worse. On the other hand, with the killings, with everything that it's doing, people's hatred toward this regime is also getting more severe. It's in the final phase. Even if it's we don't succeed today, we will succeed, and this fight will continue till freedom in Iran.

SPEAKER_03 39:04

You can learn more about Solal Habib and the mission of the National Council of Resistance of Iran at ntr-iran.org. Thank you to Zolal for spending some time with me in the listening to Sol. The listening to is written and produced by yours truly 2023. Thank you for putting you in to the listening to.