The Listening Tube with Bob Woodley Venezuela and David Deighton on the art of conversation (specifically, his)

SPEAKER_03 0:00

This is the listening tube.

SPEAKER_04 0:08

Hello. Thank you for putting your ear to the listening tube. I'm your host, Bob Woodley. Merry New Year! On this episode, I'll have a New Year, New You conversation with artist David Deaton, who just happens to be in Colombia. I'll ask him what the locals think about the end of the Maduro regime in Venezuela. And David will also tell us about how his art gets people talking about politics without wanting to beat each other over the head with it.

SPEAKER_03 0:41

But first, not the headlines.

SPEAKER_04 0:48

As I'm sure you know, the big news this week is the American incursion into Venezuela to extract their dictator. He's a wanted man with a $50 million bounty on his head. Well, there's $50 million we won't have to pay. I don't know what it costs to execute the mission, but maybe it's a watch. Anyway, this is not the headline, so let's dig in a little bit to how ABC News covered the story. I follow ABC News on Facebook and was intrigued by the reporting they shared as the story developed. It began with Matt Rivers reporting very early, early enough that he had no idea what the mission was and assumed Maduro would address his people in the morning.

SPEAKER_02 1:37

No word yet from the U.S. government officially, but we are hearing from the Venezuelan government a statement uh coming out not that long ago uh confirming that they believe that they are under attack from the United States of America. Uh, they believe that civilian and military areas of Caracas, uh the capital there have been targeted, as well as areas in the states surrounding the capital area, Miranda, Aragua, and La Guayra. So these are all areas uh where we know that the Venezuelan military has a large presence. This is a very uh populous area. Millions of people live in the uh surrounding area, the metro area uh there and still very early, you know, and I think that that's worth noting here. It's the overnight hours, lots of information still coming in that needs to be confirmed. But what is confirmed here uh is is these explosions across the Capitol there uh signaling what appears to be a major escalation uh in the ongoing campaign against the Maduro government. And one thing I'll point out here, we have not yet heard directly from the president of Venezuela, Nicolas Maduro. We haven't seen him yet. That is certainly something that the people of Venezuela are are going to be looking uh looking forward to hearing uh uh at some point overnight and into the morning hours.

SPEAKER_01 2:49

Matt, any more information you can give us on those targets? You did mention civilian and military targets. Uh any more um information about those civilian targets, especially?

SPEAKER_02 3:00

No details yet uh in terms of what we can firmly report, but what we can say is that uh when you're talking about military assets in and around Caracas, you're talking about a mixture of civilian and professional military. Uh within Venezuela, uh there are a number of different levels of the security state, and the government there treats them all as one collective unit. So you have the Venezuelan military, but you also have these civilian groups known as colectivos, you have the state security apparatus, and we know that some of these uh bases where these uh military groups, where these security groups operate, are located in civilian areas. So if you are attacking military targets, uh you could certainly be doing so in areas surrounded by a civilian population. I've spoken to several contacts overnight uh who live in the Caracas area, and people are obviously extremely scared. Uh, we know that there have been uh some videos out there of pedestrians running in the streets there. So, no question this is a very, very tense time for the people of Venezuela as we continue to wait for more word from the United States government, from the Trump administration about exactly what is going on here.

SPEAKER_04 4:11

You'll notice that the very first concern of ABC News was the potential for civilian casualties in the capital of Venezuela. Perhaps it's a legitimate concern knowing how deadly the tools of the American military can be. After all, bombs were dropping all around, and it must have looked like an all-out war with no regard for extra battle casualties or what is sometimes called collateral damage. Aerial before and after photographs of the target zones, however, demonstrate a pinpoint precision, perhaps never before displayed in a bombing attack inside a civilian/slash military area. Individual buildings were destroyed while the surrounding structures were still intact. One building destroyed on the side of a road in the middle of a forest or jungle looks as if the commander orders the building be destroyed without harming any of the surrounding trees. Yes, sir, we can do that. There were literally no reports of civilian casualties as a result of the U.S. invasion. The actual mission had still not been revealed.

SPEAKER_02 5:30

Then, about 15 minutes later, strikes were always a possibility given that force buildup that we've seen. But what is really going to stun the world, I think, is what happened, according to President Trump, that they were able to capture Nicolas Nicolas Maduro and his wife and fly them out of the country. Remember, the United States has long accused Maduro of being a drug trafficker, of being the head of a group called the Cartel de los Soles, which is a loosely organized group in Venezuela that the United States says is responsible for pushing lots of cocaine into the Caribbean and up to the United States. There was a $50 million reward on his head at this point for information leading to uh his capture and arrest. And so it does appear the president is leaning into that, talking about the operation being done in conjunction with U.S. law enforcement, perhaps seeking to fend off questions down the road that might come up about the legality of strikes like this. So he's leaning into the law enforcement element of this. But there is no question this is a stunning overnight series of events in the country of Venezuela. Not just these strikes themselves, but also the apparent capture and flying out of the country the head of government of Venezuela, Nicolas Maduro and his wife.

SPEAKER_04 6:50

So now that they know what the mission was, they turn to the legality of it. Even after Selena Wang notes that the mission was flawless.

SPEAKER_00 7:01

Yeah, the president says that news conference is happening at 11 a.m. here in Florida at Mar-Lago. And the key questions are still outstanding. For one, what is Congress notified of? Are U.S. troops still on the ground in Venezuela? And critically, what is next for the country? What is President Trump's vision for that country? For weeks now, President Trump has said all of this is about going after drug traffickers, but it is clear now that this is about far more than that.

SPEAKER_04 7:29

So that's the first thing you want to know. Was Congress notified? I would defy ABC News to find a single regular American within hours who, just finding out that the United States used a military action to remove a wanted criminal from another country, first wants to know if Congress was notified in advance. Really? ABC News? That is what you think the biggest question is. You are right that we want to know what's going to happen next, and maybe you'll be kind enough to tell us after it happens. But it's only in your own bubble that you think the most important question is if Congress was notified. Before positing the question, perhaps you could have looked up the legality and protocol yourself. That's what journalists do, rather than simply thinking out loud. How many lawyers does ABC have on its staff? They'd rather plant seeds of doubt in the minds of their viewers than inform them of what happened and why.

SPEAKER_03 8:42

And if that wasn't enough.

SPEAKER_04 9:01

Hundreds of flights canceled. Oh, those poor people stuck on the beaches of Puerto Rico and other Caribbean nations and islands. And I think I think they managed. When President Trump announced later that the U.S. would run the country until a transition could take place, liberals went crazy. But it doesn't seem to be anyone in the Trump administration calling the shots in Venezuela right now. And that's probably the question most Americans have. What's next? Not was Congress notified, or what about international law? Well, there's no such thing as international law. The closest thing we have is the Geneva Convention. Congress did not need to be notified, and Maduro and his wife will face American justice. Regardless of how ABC and other legacy media may try to pull you in a certain direction, the fact is most people think it's a good thing that was done by the Americans. Certainly, the near future of Venezuela has certain shakiness right now, but it seems the people there are ready to get back to the country they were before socialism and dictatorship took over.

SPEAKER_03 10:23

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SPEAKER_04 10:34

My guest today, David Deaton, much to my surprise, just happened to be near the border of Venezuela when it became the center of the media world. Before we got to why I wanted to talk to him in the first place, I had to ask about what's happening at ground level there. I'm based out of Santa Fe, New Mexico, but I'm in Colombia right now. Oh, Colombia. Well, are you near the border of Venezuela?

SPEAKER_05 11:02

Well, um things take a long time to get anywhere here. So maybe as the crow flies, I might be.

unknown 11:10

Okay.

SPEAKER_05 11:13

There's some good conversations uh with people here.

SPEAKER_04 11:15

Certainly a lot of action in the area right now.

SPEAKER_05 11:18

Right. Yes. And there's a lot of, you know, it's interesting to hear what people have to say here. And there's several Venezuelan uh refugees in the area too that have been here for years, uh settled in Colombia, made families here.

SPEAKER_04 11:33

Well, although that is not the topic of our conversation today, is is there anything that you'd like to share about what you've been hearing since uh uh Maduro has been removed?

SPEAKER_05 11:44

It's been interesting. People have uh you know very happy about the about the invasion, the removal of Maduro, especially the Venezuelan refugees or economic refugees that are here. And they you know, several of the can't wait to go home uh and see their families. And it's interesting to hear what you know what they think of it all. They they think uh what the few conversations I had uh have been about showing um uh support for the United States effort to reestablish uh democratic rule in Venezuela. And then some know by historical experience that that might not be the case at all, and that the experience might be one of a lengthy transition, maybe with uh social struggles in order to get there, because Colombia has experienced over 50 or 60 years of close to civil war between parties and um between the liberals and the conservatives here, and that's actually what they call themselves the conservadores and the liberales. Um, and uh they're a bit frightened uh that they're democratically elected president here, uh, that that uh President Trump has uh mentioned about uh removing him as well, although he's been democratically elected by by a large uh majority. You're speaking of the leader of Colombia, right? Of Colombia, yeah, Gustavo Petro. So it's really interesting to be here. It's my first time to Colombia and to get to hear what people's uh opinions are on of all of this. Well, you certainly picked an exciting time to be there.

SPEAKER_04 13:18

Well, is there anything going on in Colombia I should know? Not that I'm aware of. Uh but uh certainly, yes. Well, thank you for sharing that that first hand insight with us. Certainly an unexpected surprise. You use your art to inspire others to speak and listen. Now, that's a reasonable premise, as a picture is worth a thousand words, right? So, what is it about your art that inspires conversation?

SPEAKER_05 13:52

You know, it's a process, so I I didn't quite get to the the point where uh where I'm at right now. It took me several years of experimentation um where I wanted to focus on a taboo, like addressing how we can discuss a taboo in a non-confrontational manner. So I chose politics as uh as that taboo. So it's the country's uh increasingly polarized and divided. And uh so I was thinking, how does somebody from the left speak to somebody from the right without having a um you know, without having an argument about it? And uh so I did you know a little bit of research and uh found that you know uh there's several communication models that that allow that to happen, but I thought, well, that's one thing to have it written down. Let's see what it happens in person, right? To try it out. Let me go talk to some strangers and say, hey, do you want to talk about politics and ask them some non-th these questions? And um and you know, I went through a th through a process. Um I've been I've I've had hundreds of encounters with people, and none of them, I have to say, have been confrontational. What I have found is when when I'm asking my my questions to people, and they're always the same questions, I found that when I'm listening to them, I might get triggered, personally triggered. You know, there's some words or things that I hear that I'm not uh that don't agree with me, uh some facts or opinions. And I thought, well, with that I'm gonna go nowhere because uh I'm ready for a confrontation or for an argument in that circumstance. And so what I did uh is try not to be triggered and look for rather an emotion that that me and this person will have in common. Like if they're angry about the state of affairs in the United States, you know, I might be angry too. And so I'll share that with them that you know, I disagree with everything you said, except, you know what, you're angry, and I'm angry too. And that constitutes my bridge. So I'll I'll do this under I'll do a different way. So I've done interviews, you know, where uh impromptu interviews in national parks in particular and free speech areas, but I also create art installations that kind of draw in people's uh attention, made uh statues or conceptual pieces like two empty chairs where one says Democrat and the other says Republican and nobody's sitting there. When you see those in an unusual location, you wonder, well, what are those two chairs doing there? And um and so that gets the conversation uh hopefully going. Some pieces uh don't work as well as others, but I've had some fabulous uh encounters that were transformational jobs, not just for me, but for other people that then wanted to go out and use the same techniques to talk to maybe estranged brothers, sisters, family members, friends that they no longer speak to because of politics, or just generally in their community. And for me, that's that's my payment. That's how uh you know I feel good about that when it happens.

SPEAKER_04 16:58

It's interesting that you said uh the bridge is findings proclaiming that both of you are angry. Yeah, for example, even though you may not be angry about the same thing, that it's a it's uh it's a commonality among you now. So I guess what I'm wondering is why is it why is it anger that can connect us more so than than being happy about things?

SPEAKER_05 17:25

Well, if it if it's if they're if they're you know, if I if I share this say it doesn't have to be anger, um they you know I'm always looking for maybe a a word or something that they have in common. And you know, it's true, most of the words are like people have uh they have hope that things are gonna get uh the way that they envisage things. So that that would be our connection, um, that word. Um some words they might find the word to be the word see. I'll ask them three questions, Bob. I'll ask them, I'll just give you what the questions are so that people get an idea. And I'll just say them in a row and what what happens. So I'll ask people, uh, how would you describe the political system of the United States of America? And then the person answers, and I listen intently with all my senses, um, and uh listen in to what they're saying. And then the second word, uh second question is uh how would you describe your feelings or reactions to the current state of US politics? And there we get a little bit deeper, and there I might find some words that that we can connect with. And then third is kind of a game where you finish the sentence uh and it and it goes politics in the United States, blank, and the person finishes that sentence. And when those three questions are are done, I then ask the hardest of the questions. I asked them to give me one word that brings all of their answers together. And what I found, which is kind of quite interesting, is that they might have many things that they need to bring out and say. But in the end, that one word is often contrary to it. It's their aspirations and hopes and they're and they're positive, regardless of where you are in the political spectrum. And uh and so leaving a person with that optimistic usually message that they found themselves gives them an empowering for empowerment to go out and do something, to act by talking to someone else, rather than relying on forces from above, you know, being a democratic movement of the foundations of speaking to our fellow citizens.

SPEAKER_04 19:34

It's interesting that even though the answers to the first three questions may be somewhat negative, if not neutral, but you that one word as you say is usually uh a positive word.

SPEAKER_05 19:48

Yeah. And I'm still don't I still can't figure it out. You know, this is I'm I'm an artist. I I'm not a you know uh sociologist or a linguist or anything, although I do ask people in those professions for feedback. Um but yeah, that's always intrigued me. I think it's because the the framework that we have of of America is that we have greater aspirations of what this country can bring. So although we see maybe through our filters a certain way, we do imagine that we have a better outcome in the future if we act in certain in certain ways. And uh that that's that's what I feel is the case when I have those uh those responses. And they're not always the the final word might not be a good one. I mean, there's uh it's just generally speaking, it seems to be uh what comes out out of all these uh these encounters I've had. I didn't never thought at the beginning of this project, uh over six years ago, that that that would be the case. I was expecting confrontation, arguments, uh uh screaming contest, who knows what was gonna happen. But in the end, uh it wasn't that at all. And that's why I was saying it was transformational, because it changed me. I've been much of a political activist in my field in art, and it's transformed all my art because I'm finding all these commonalities with others just because of the interaction with people of a different political mindset than mine, or different point of view or echo chamber than mine.

SPEAKER_04 21:18

You say you've been at it for six years, and so obviously over the course of those six years you've learned a lot, but you've also got a lot of people to talk. Yes. So uh and and is that's the goal, right? Is there is there some kind of end game, or is this just a continuing uh mission?

SPEAKER_05 21:38

It just keeps on going, you know, to see where it goes next. At this point, I'm exploring just new art installations uh that could be interesting to use uh with people. Uh I'm looking at echo chambers like my worldview, for example. How and some, you know, you have a worldview, I have a worldview. How do those two worldviews interconnect? And how do we enter that space with one another? And what do those spaces look like? So that's interesting. I'll share an installation that I thought was quite interesting that I did at the Grand Canyon. The parks were really kind. They got me a spot right there on the Grand Canyon on the rim at an amphitheater there. And I set up a museum case and I put an abstract sculpture in the middle. And people would come up, because that's not supposed to be there, right? And say, Well, what's this all about? And I said, Well, you know, that statue in there, that's uh that's a representation of me, of you, of just someone, if you want. But I'm not as interested in the statue as much as in the glass case. And to me, I tell them that that case, translucent case, is a representation of our echo chamber, our worldview. When we're inside, it always looks so much bigger than it actually is. And but it's a lot more confined that we than we think it is. And then I'll have in my hand, I'll have a little uh, you know, one of these uh clear uh spice jars made out of glass, and I'll have a little statue in it. And I'll say, well, look at this echo chamber, it's even smaller, right? And it's a question of space. I mean, I got I'm outdoors, there's wind, there's rain, all that stuff when it happens. And but I say, you know, like how the question is, is how does this echo chamber, the one that I'm holding in my hand, can it enter the other one, right, and communicate, right, offline in person? How is that done? And I just stop at a question with no response, and then people just generally stop for a long time and they're look down to the side and they're wondering like what is the answer to that question and why should I do it? Or do I have uh you know a limited point of view or worldview, or what is an echo chamber? And all those things happen, right? And um, yeah, and I'm happy with that because I find that also to be part of things that are lacking in our in our uh political landscape right now, in our communication.

SPEAKER_04 24:10

Do people even realize that they are participating in this crusade of yours?

SPEAKER_05 24:18

Um, not always, no. I mean, uh, you know, they're they're very much thinking about what's going on at the moment, right? Um about this art installation and this weird guy that's in the wrong place, and you know what's but they're willing to participate. It's um you know that I find that to to be beautiful. And they all people come up with new things for me all the time, uh, with new ideas. And in a national park like the Grand Canyon, you can encounter a lot of uh people from foreign countries as well. So, for example, the Chinese don't want to talk about politics for anything, right? It's like, oh, politics don't talk about that. That's bigger than a taboo. That can that could be trouble, right? But uh somebody from India, oh, they have lots of polarization going on in their country and they want to talk about it, and they say, Oh, it's a big problem where I'm from. And yes, uh, you know, uh those people do this and those people do that. But often we don't look at ourselves, right? We don't point at ourselves, we're always pointing at others, and it's an opportunity to to reflect, just calm down for a bit and realize where we are and our connection to others, right?

SPEAKER_04 25:28

It's it's brave of you to put uh a piece of art next to the Grand Canyon. Uh, you know, it's kind of hard to not be upstaged by the Grand Canyon. What are some of the what are some other unconventional places that people may have encountered your work?

SPEAKER_05 25:44

So actually, Bob, you're quite right. Uh the being at the Grand Canyon on the rim is not the best place to do something like that because you're definitely upstaged by the Grand Canyon. But there's interesting, like uh on the way from the parking lot to the view, uh the national parks have set up uh free speech areas uh where people can set up uh for religious speech, uh for political speech, where mostly it's uh religious organizations or conservation groups. I bring art to it because that's protected by the First Amendment. So that's been an interesting experiment. But I brought them uh to Yellowstone, uh to I'm in New Mexico, so I've done all the national parks around there and Guadalupe uh National Monument and uh yeah, lots of different places to exploring what is uh what what what are our free speech areas look like in America? And they're in the out west, we don't have um that many areas that people congregate in.

SPEAKER_04 26:46

You're in Colombia right now. Is are you planning on uh creating an exhibit there, or is this mostly an American uh endeavor?

SPEAKER_05 26:56

What I'm gonna do is I've I've been creating also time capsules uh made out of ceramics. So uh I'm gonna be firing ceramic vessels with messages in it in in Spanish written on ceramic tiles, and then I'll be burying those. It's also a reflection to the fact that uh Colombia has the second largest uh uh amount of per anti-personal minds, uh, you know, uh IEDs uh in the world after uh what is it, uh after Afghanistan, I believe, right? So there's a lot. Uh so it'll be a reflection on on that. And I'll I'll write things, you know. If somebody finds it in a couple hundred years, they'll say something like, uh, you know, what is democracy? Maybe they don't have it anymore in a couple hundred years. It'll be interesting. Coke or Pepsi. Yeah, something like this. You know what? That would be that would be a good one.

SPEAKER_04 27:57

No, what the answer may seem obvious to the listener or uh casual observer, but why do you think it's important for people to not only speak but also listen?

SPEAKER_05 28:11

Right. Um well this this all uh arrived by uh was from our our our lack of apparent lack of connection with uh with others that are that we're not customarily uh speaking to, uh people that are the out group. You know, we stay in our in-group. When we're online, we're always staying within our group, right? We don't really go out of it, and and social media makes us stay in these areas, and that's where we're that's where we're we're going into.

SPEAKER_04 28:44

So as the echo chamber demonstrated at the Grand Canyon.

SPEAKER_05 28:48

Yeah, we're getting our echo chamber is getting smaller and smaller and smaller, and the algorithm keeps us in there and entertains us in many ways. But I I I I find it to be probably a very dangerous place for us to be politically, as uh we need outs, we need the contacts with other people and to hear where they're coming from versus what's being fed to us by by our devices. And with AI, who knows where that's gonna take us, right? Um, so that that's my primary, my my primary concern. But the the connection has to be, I find in person. So it takes a bit of courage from us to do that. But the good news is by being by doing listening versus just talking over other people to get our point of view across, we have an opportunity at various moments during the week to show to others that we can have uh we can be present for the other and give them a space for them to say what they have to say. I I know how basic that is, and it's uh quite I it's quite unfortunate that we have to feel like we have to be at the at this foundation, this base. I feel if we don't do that, nothing else is working, right? We can try to share facts and opinions with others, but people are doubting the validity of these facts and opinions. So uh there's no transformation there, or we just let people stay where they are and keep on voting one way or the other, and and uh we'll just maybe all hate each other. It doesn't seem like a good outcome to me.

SPEAKER_04 30:20

No. So the so then the the objective might be to heal divides. And and you had you'd specif specifically talked about political divides, because that's an easy taboo, as you as you mentioned, to point out. There are also religious taboos. What other types of taboos uh divide us?

SPEAKER_05 30:40

Or is it mostly just politics and religion? Anything that anything that triggers us, right? I don't have to name them. I think each one of us, the things that upset us that are brought before us through, for example, our social media devices, uh platforms, the the things that upset us is the the memes that are that make us laugh, of seeing the other uh uh fail and stumble. Maybe those are the aspects of uh of uh taboos we need to address uh and to think about maybe engaging with that very person that we think to be uh ridiculous. Uh maybe find out a little bit more about them personally and get to know them. Uh they often surprise us. Uh for example, I've been very much uh on on the on the left my whole life. Uh and now I'm finding great connections with uh with people uh on the right that have very different uh views from from mine and different opinions on so many different things, but uh we're still having a good laugh about things and uh uh and we're finding you know we're finding ways to be able to discuss it after after being able to listen and and show them that I'm willing to listen and I'm willing to not be aggressive, right? Not to prove them wrong, just to be there for a bit, show them that bit of humanity, right? Then that I that right there is how it works for me. And I get to this space where we can have uh later conversations, you have to put yourself out there first.

SPEAKER_04 32:16

Now I think it's easy to find all kinds of people who are willing to talk to their political opponents. It's probably a lot more difficult to find people who are willing to listen. Is is there a type of person or a political persuasion or perhaps uh an environment that creates the people who are less likely to listen?

SPEAKER_05 32:43

Well, of course, uh you know, as I what I do, you know, it's gonna attract uh certain people that are curious. So there's a question of curiosity. Um people that are willing to be approached by by me or the artwork. So the curious, the the child within us that's still curious to discover new things and and ask questions and to learn. That's that's where that's where it's at. I believe it's in curiosity. And if we can revive our curiosity, we stand a chance to be able to have uh this is that type of person, I believe. That's the type of person that's willing uh to listen, is the one that's willing to to be curious again. We can all be a little bit more curious, I think.

SPEAKER_04 33:32

Uh it certainly wouldn't hurt. Now, how much how much responsibility does the national media in the United States have for the divisions in America?

SPEAKER_05 33:45

Oh, well, uh you know, I talked about social media platforms, but uh of course uh yes, the uh traditional uh platforms of uh of uh of of cable, of radio, of all these things uh have a big part to play because they have an audience to please. It it's always good to uh, you know, if that's what you do, then it's maybe a good idea to spend uh as much time uh listening to the other side and see what they have to say. But that takes a long time. That takes a lot of effort. If we spend hours uh listening to the same news network, then I wouldn't be surprised that you know you have a singular view and you're like, you know, you're losing your curiosity. It's gonna be more difficult having that conversation. So uh, or maybe not, maybe it's it's worthwhile, maybe that person can do it. I I try to make a little a nice little mix of uh of my media sources and always try to you know check facts and if it's a bit weird, I would you know see where that's coming from, who said that, when was it said, what were the circumstances. But it's very time consuming to check every source of information that that uh is brought to you. It's so much easier just to scroll through whatever's brought to you, but then you have to accept that many of those things are falsehoods, uh, or just or just a single a single side of an of of uh of a fact, right? Um you have to look around, go around the fact, see it from different angles.

SPEAKER_04 35:12

You need context.

SPEAKER_05 35:13

Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_04 35:15

Now you mentioned that uh near the beginning of the program, you were sometimes triggered by opinions and facts. And my and the first question that came to my mind when you said that was, should we be triggered by facts or just opinions?

SPEAKER_05 35:31

Oh, that's that's interesting. Well, you know, is if I find so if I so it becomes a matter of opinion if I believe that the fact that was given to me is is false, right? And that's when I would be triggered, like, well, that fact, I know that to be uh a non-fact or it's a false fact as far as I'm concerned. Not a fact. I could put more about it, right? So then it becomes a matter of opinion. Um like, oh, that's missing, I would think that's misinformed. So rather than focusing on like, well, this person's a fool because they're thinking this and I know better, I might want to, rather than say, oh, where did you get that from? I need to go step several steps back and not focus too much on the things that triggered me. Now, when I was saying earlier, like six years ago, I would just regularly get triggered. It was very difficult for me to listen to what the person had to say because I I I'd be, I just keep on using the word triggered, I'd be um, you know, maybe sometimes appalled, sometimes intrigued by what was said, and I could no longer hear the rest of it.

SPEAKER_04 36:38

You say you use gimmicks to get people to speak to their political arrivals. You've been at it for six years. Have all of them worked?

SPEAKER_05 36:49

Oh no, no, no, definitely. There's some that that uh they're just as uh they were just as obscure to me as they were to the public. But um but most most of them have, you know, you can tweak things. The question of the gimmick to me is the excuse that we have, how do we start, how does somebody start a political conversation with a stranger uh when they're not doing what I'm doing, going to a national park. Um let's say you're meeting somebody at the at a grocery store and it's a super long line. I mean, and you just talk about the weather, but rather than the weather, you say, you know, I met somebody, right? I met this guy in a national park that had these three questions, and then people start using it then. There's ways to plug them in. It's the story that we create in our interactions that allow other people to use it. So, for example, the gimmick, the art installation, is also kind of a story that allows people to share that story with someone else, and then therefore start on the subject of conversing um about a taboo subject like politics. And so that's what I mean by the gimmick.

SPEAKER_04 37:57

Okay, so the conversation might go. I was at the Grand Canyon, and this Paul Artist had this display there, and this is what it was, and this is why he did it. And I was just wondering what you think, and then you have a conversation. Now, I've always felt it was easier to start a conversation about politics with someone I don't know than with someone I do because I I've also I've already have uh or what I think is a clear understanding of their political stance, and maybe I don't want to hear it, or maybe I don't need it to reinforce what I already believe. Speaking with strangers seemed a lot more valuable and interesting to me. Is there somewhere we can go to learn more from your experiences?

SPEAKER_05 38:43

Uh well, I I have a like a diary, uh, a chronology of sorts on YouTube, uh, which I just uh post uh the interviews, uh videos, uh about different things, the art installations. And that's uh at the name of the project, which is triptych dialogue, which is a very strange word, but it's the three panels of religious panels. Uh anyway, so it's written T-R-I-P-T-Y-C-H dialogue with a UE at the end. And triptych dialogue will take you there, and you can find out what the questions are that I've been using, seeing the different gimmicks, if you like, that that I've been uh using. And you know, it's it's not it's not uh a channel that's meant to entertain, it's more uh serving as a diary of sorts for me. And people can go to that. And just so go out there and right now have a conversation with somebody, right? And listen in. Listen, yeah, with a stranger, as you said, is easier than with somebody you're close to.

SPEAKER_04 39:46

I I think so. I think it definitely is. The trip tech. I do back in the day, the American Automobile Association used to have a thing called a trip tech.

SPEAKER_05 39:56

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 39:58

If you were gonna travel somewhere, you could go to the AAA, your local AAA, and they'd print it out for you. It was on a spiral notebook, you know. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 40:07

I remember those. I used them a couple of times as that would have probably been better because that makes more sense. But mine is like it's a three-panel art piece of artwork that has three things on it, and it's not T I C at the end or T-I-C-K. Mine's T Y C H at the end. But yeah, I like that one, Bob. That would have been better.

SPEAKER_04 40:29

Well, you I I can't give you permission to use it because AAA owns it ideally.

SPEAKER_05 40:33

Do they still do that? Probably not.

SPEAKER_04 40:35

So so but they can find your YouTube channel then uh triptych. What was it? Dialogue. Yeah, triptych dialogue. Yeah, triptych dialogue dialogue on on YouTube. Sounds fascinating, uh, David, and I I really appreciate you uh sharing that with us. Now, is there anything that everybody you know we're talking about talking and listening. Is there anything that everybody needs to say or something that everybody needs to hear?

SPEAKER_05 41:11

I don't know. No, I don't I don't have an answer to that. I I the one that I know is to to be able to put be in a space, mental space where you can listen to the other, and to find out that the other is very much us, you know, as part of community. Don't be aggressive, you know, just listen in. That's try it out.

SPEAKER_04 41:33

That's a good point, David. Because some people are aggressive, and I think that may deter some people from entering in a conversation to begin with. You know, they they they're looking for dialogue, but they're afraid of uh backlash. Yeah. And is that did you find a lot of that in your conversations, or does it fade over time with with the way you approach the subject?

SPEAKER_05 41:58

Well, uh, that's what was crazy about the whole thing is that no, I'd never I have never had uh a conflict, right? It never came to the place where the other person was uh was was was angry uh at me for just the listening. What's what's there to be angry about? You know, and what happens often that person all they have is they just want to get it out. Nobody's ever had a they didn't have an never had an opportunity to talk about politics to a stranger and just say what they had to say and not be judged by it. And I've had people cry. I mean, I've had people cry, like that was so deep to them because they have broken relationships on that that very subject. I would think of them particularly of a mom that was no longer speaking, son won't speak to her anymore because they're from two different sides. And uh that was that was tough. And I I was there, uh, you know, I was I was kind of the age of her son, and so she was maybe projecting, but she that was that was really tough. She got to say it through me as if she was sending it to her son, and it was very much like we should we should listen to one another and we should hear each other out. That was as a as a country, and that I found that very, very strong for me. But when we listen in, there's no there's no argument to if you say I've got three non-confrontational questions, people would say, how can they be non-confrontational when they're about politics? And the point is, is when you listen, they're not confrontational at all. It's the other person that has to deal with their own inner conflicts to bring it out. And and that's that's uh that's a process. So we're offering that to other people when we do that, when we listen to others, we're giving them a chance to resolve their inner conflicts in some place in this taboo that they're no longer able to speak about freely, except with people that they agree with.

SPEAKER_04 43:46

To get the answers to those questions and many more, David's YouTube page again is Triptych Dialogue. That's T-R-I-P-T-Y-C-H. Thanks again to David Deaton for spending some time in the listening tube. I hope you enjoyed the conversation as much as David and I did. All we have to do is keep talking. The listening tube is written and produced by yours truly. Copyright 2026. Shout out to some of the new places tuning in. Sussex Inlet, New South Wales, Weekly Watchy, Florida, Bucaramonga, St. Under Department, and Frankfurt, Germany. Thank you for putting your ear to the listening tube. I'm your host, Bob Woodley.